Threads of Connection with Dean Spade

Dean Spade joins the pod this week to discuss his book, Love in a Fucked Up World: How to Build Relationships, Hook Up and Raise Hell Together. He brings a sharp, layered perspective on how we are shaped by the systems around us—and how we can wake up to the patterns of control we’ve internalized. Together, we explore what it means to turn our relationships into spaces for healing, liberation, and deeper connection.

• Get Dean’s book, Love in a F*cked Up World
• Follow Dean on Instagram
• Community Justice Exchange

Transcript

Prentis (00:06):

Hey everybody, it's Prentis and welcome to Becoming the People.

Prentis (00:10):

Okay. I've wanted to have Dean Spade on my podcast for literally years <laugh>, and years and years. Um, I've known Dean also for years, and he's really, really, really authentically one of the smartest, kindest, most insightful people that you will ever meet. There's just a generosity to the way that Dean interacts with everyone that I've rarely seen in another person. I, I get this sense with Dean that he can really see the complexity of the world. Like he really can see the way systems move and act on us and between us, and that he chooses to really value the one-on-one, the interpersonal, the group dynamics with such attention and care, even while seeing all of that complexity. He's gifted that way, honestly, very, very gifted that way. Dean wrote a book a little while ago now, maybe a year or so, or more, called Love in a Up World, and it's, it's a text that's relatable.

Prentis (01:23):

It's almost instructional, it's like a companion piece, um, that helps us look more closely at our relationships with each other, romantic friendship, organizing relationships. But it feels like Dean is holding this question of how can our relationships actually be liberatory and how can they be places where we change and where we do our healing work? Because we're in this together and we're gonna have to be in this together, in this episode we talk about so much, but we talk about how each of us enter into relationships, the kind of baggage that we bring, and how we might practice more awareness, um, more risk taking, how we break patterns of control or patterns of hiding. We really get into some juicy stuff and I'm just glad that I got to have this conversation with Dean finally, and I hope it's the first of many 'cause he is a dear one and someone I love to be in practice with. So I hope you enjoy this episode and let us know what you think. Dean, I'm so happy you're here. It's always fun when I get to talk to you, whether it's in this kind of format or in person, and I'm just grateful you said yes. So thank you for being here.

Dean (02:34):

Thanks for inviting me. I love your podcast.

Prentis (02:37):

The first thing I wanna do, you know, when I know someone, I like to kind of tell a little bit of a story about my impression, <laugh> of you when I first met you, and the experience I had. And I will say, you know, I'm not exactly sure the moment we met, maybe, you know, but I, I don't think I know the moment that we actually met, but I remember hearing about you for years, I mean, because of the Sylvia Rivera project, but also through our dear friend Morgan Baus, who would talk about you all the time. And the first time that I, I spent time with you, and we still haven't spent a ton of time, but the first time I spent time with you, I think, was during a somatic training in Seattle. And I think I must have stayed an extra day. I hope it's okay to tell the story, but you invited me to a beach and I, I showed up to this beach in Seattle, which was so lovely. I didn't even know there were beaches in Seattle. And you, I showed up and you said, get in this inner tube and let me push you around <laugh>.

Prentis (03:41):

And I was like, really? Dean Spade not to push me around in inner Tube. I've never actually received a request like that. And so I was like, of course this sounds like an amazing adventure. So I got in the inner tube and you just swam me around the lake and asked me questions about myself. Like, you really brought forward the curiosity, you kept deepening the questions you're asking me. And I always remember that day because it was such a, I've had very few experiences like that where someone will you really invite connection and intimacy, really be open to another person and curious the way you were that day. So it was just such a sweet tender introduction to who you are as a person. Um, and I just wanted to name that 'cause I think it's just like, it's, it's such a unique experience with someone and I feel like it connects to what you're doing now where your work has taken you. So do you remember that?

Dean (04:38):

I remember that day and I, for me, when I moved to Seattle after having lived in like New York City for a long time and other places where I didn't have as much like nature time. And for me the height of luxury is to be on an inner tube on a body of water. And in Seattle though, lake is kind of cold for a lot of visitors. So I love to put someone on the inner tube be like, you feel the sun on your skin while I show you how pretty this lake is. Let's, let's go out far enough that you can see the mountain peaking out. I like, for me, that is like, I want everyone to have the like best possible encounter with that beautiful water of air, which is too cold for many people, <laugh>. Um, so it was really fun to be like, oh, Prentis doesn't even know that we swim a lot in Seattle. And like, you get to now have the most kind of, um, I think inviting introduction to the, like, you're not gonna get your legs in the lake, weed <laugh> that's on the bottom. You're just gonna have the like Upper leg.

Prentis (05:36):

So first of all, that's amazing 'cause uh, a thousand percent I would not have gotten in that like <laugh>, it was so cold. But also there's like, there, I think you're revealing I kind of, uh, a deep thoughtfulness and care even in that you're like, I want you to have the best introduction to this experience. So I'm just curious for you in your own life, like how did you start to orient around that kind of depth of care and thoughtfulness that I think shows up in that story?

Dean (06:03):

I do. I think there's something about whatever that quality is that I learned from my mom. Um, it just makes me think about this thing where, you know, we were quite poor and there was some level of food insecurity and there was a lot of excitement about food in our house when there was good food. And it was like, I remember in the summer when the corn would be on the stalk, it was this game where the corn tastes the best, the faster it gets in the water. So you run from where you pick it shucking along the way, throwing the corn silk to get in the pot, you know, like the pleasure of like, this is gonna be so amazing. Let's have the, like, you know what I mean? The most pleasurable version. And also like the, when the raspberries were ripe, like it's time to go out.

Dean (06:45):

Or like she'd wake me up early before school started if it snowed so I could have that moment in the snow. 'cause you know, I live in Virginia, it doesn't always stay on the ground very long or might melt. It's not like a super snowy place. Like go have it before. You know, like there's a kind of, uh, capacity for finding something very special. Um, that I think was also related to her, her growing, growing up in poverty. I remember her telling me about like they'd get an orange once a year in their stalking at Christmas. Um, she grew up in Eastern Canada and I, there was not a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables, um, for them. And just like things like that where you're like, really know how to enjoy something. I feel like that quality and then that, and then that capacity to want to have other people have that experience with you is something that she definitely,

Prentis (07:30):

Yeah, 'cause it's like there's the, there's the enjoyment and the pleasure and then there's the sharing that seems like it got coupled for you and those experiences of like, you know, there's something that enhances it when we do it together. Your new book, um, new New-ish new still. Yeah, love In a Up World. I never know how to, you know, when there's an asterisk, I'm like, it's, it's, right? <laugh>, it's, that's. Um,

Dean (07:55):

It's fucked. Yeah.

Prentis (07:56):

I, I wanna start really basic. I, I love talking about love, but I wanna just understand when you're talking about love, what, what are you talking about? What's it, what is it, how does it work? What does it do in the world? Um, what, what's love to you?

Dean (08:10):

I mean, in the title of the book, I think it stands for something people are seeking that the funness of the world makes hard to feel satisfied by or find in the ways that we want. It's also the name of like something that's very crowded with illusions, you know, in our culture. Like, maybe this will solve all your problems. Maybe this has to look a certain way. There's just so much there. Like, what actually is love? I do think about it. I, I mean I, I read, um, you know, the road Less Traveled like when I was like a teenager and whatever it says in there, I'm not gonna get the words right. Which I get think Bell Hooks then made a lot more famous in her work of like wanting like the full development and wellbeing of other people. Like I, I think that's a really profound, that made a real mark on me when I was a teenager and read that.

Dean (08:57):

Um, and I've also actually just lately been doing a lot of workshops about giving and receiving feedback and how when somebody gives you feedback, they don't always do it nicely, but it's important to know that it's a sign of, it's thinking that you're important and you matter. And that's why they're taking this risk of telling you something, even if they're saying it mean. And like, could we see all feedback as love or as like input into our wellbeing or into a system the person strives to have be different or an experience or a group, even if it doesn't always feel like it's love is like not always comfortable or pleasant, um, that it might relate to like commitment or I'm caring for what, what could happen here or what I wanna change what was happening here. Like it's something about intention. I don't know, I don't think I have a very clear definition of love, but it's some, some set of those things.

Prentis (09:49):

I wanna switch gears real fast 'cause I think there's something interesting that I see you and I both doing, which is, you kind of talk about this explicitly in your book, but I, I didn't talk about this explicitly, but I felt in writing my book, I wanted to infiltrate the self-help genre.

Dean (10:06):

I think you did. I think you really did.

Prentis (10:08):

<laugh>. Okay, great. Thank you.

Dean (10:10):

It's very nice to see it.

Prentis (10:11):

and thanks, <laugh>. That was my goal and I was like, I'm not gonna say this out loud, but I wanna, I wanna wedge in there. I see my book on the shelf sometimes. I'm like, it's kind of a wedge.

Dean (10:20):

Yes. Um, it's, It's like a, it's like a sabotage. It's like really good <laugh>.

Prentis (10:25):

Yeah. Thanks <laugh>.

Dean (10:27):

It's like forcing a set of conversations into a space that is almost designed to exclude them.

Prentis (10:32):

Exactly, exactly. That was the goal. And also even titling, I shouldn't say this, but even the title, I was like, just pick it up. Just pick it up and we'll see what happens. But I think there's something interesting about you 'cause you're, you're infiltrating self-help I think, or whatever they call personal development. Um, you are a lawyer, a law professor, an organizer. You are an, an author of books and now a book on love. It's like, can you tell me a little bit more about Dean Spade's strategy <laugh> of being Dean Spade and moving in the world? Like what do you have to,

Dean (11:11):

I mean, I don't know about you, but I just like, sometimes like I have to say things and like sometimes people pick them up, sometimes they don't. There's like, you know, I've made a million tools and videos and some things people get do and some don't. And it's just like, I just have to say what I gotta say and just, you know what I mean? It's just kind of like something else going on. And one of my experiences is that I've said a lot of very unpopular things over the years. You know, like I was like very critical of same sex marriage advocacy when that was like all the rage and I've been like part of Palestine movement for like 20 years and that's mostly been like not something especially Jewish people should be doing. And you know, been very much prison of police abolitionists before that was mainstreamed.

Dean (11:44):

And like people just being like, you're ruining everything. <laugh> don't say that. And I just, it's like, not because I don't have shame and insecurity, it's just like I have to say it anyway or whatever. Which is an interesting experience and has been very hard, especially when I was younger and didn't have, had not built some kind of foundation for, for taking the hits and just being like, you know, so it's interesting, it's really fun to do do events for this book because people really seem to like to come to the events that come into the book <laugh>. And I'm like, this is so nice. Nobody's mad at me in the room compared to most of my life sharing ideas, you know, and having people be like not into it. So I mean, but what is, what? Why am I, what am I doing? I think what I'm, I think there's one question motivating all the work, which is like how, how does change happen and what gets in the way?

Dean (12:28):

So it's like a lot of my work has been about like the ways that the lie of like liberal legal reform gets in the way of change. People think this is gonna change through a lawsuit, this is gonna change through a statute, this is gonna change through an elected official. And it discourages people from being involved in the day-to-day in their communities. 'cause they're supposed to like want it to happen through a nonprofit or an elite. So that was a lot of, my first book was about that. A lot of mutual aid is like, okay, so then what is it I'm really saying we should all do? It's like actually change the material conditions in our communities. Like actually fight in our communities, realize that we can do the thing we want now instead of waiting for someone else to do it through voting or sharing our opinions.

Dean (13:02):

This is how you do it, this is what's hard about it. You know, a lot of mutual aid. The book is just like, this is, this is what's hard. Um, these are some of the tools that can help us get through it. And in all that time that I was doing those, you know, 20, 25 years of doing that work that led to those two books, I'm also just like seeing how much of our movement obstacles is just conflicts in our spaces. Um, and a lot of that conflict revolves around love, romance, sex, and friendship. So even if it's not like just a breakup, it's like things that happen attendant to that or disappointments around belonging. And so I'm also, at the same time all those years I'm like doing my own work on myself. Like how am I showing up? What is, what's in the way of the way I show up?

Dean (13:43):

What's gotten in the way of me acting out my values? So a lot of this new book is just about the co those common patterns that I've seen for myself and all the people I work with. What are, what are they and what would it look like to have some approaches to them that aren't blaming us for them, but that are just like, these are patterns. This stuff is not, you didn't invent this, this isn't you. This is like some stuff from our society that we can all work together to like identify and, and choose not to act out even if it comes up and feels very personal. So that is, it's just, it's, I think it's all the same approach to me about like what's getting in the way. Is there something I could offer that is helping me think of through that might help others?

Prentis (14:24):

I really see that, and it's sort of like you've worked on the multiple levels and you're saying like, I'm, I'm seeing the things that actually bring us apart. 'cause it, it would, it might seem, I mean even to me having heard of your work many, many years ago, 20, I don't know how old we are now at this point, Dean, but hearing about your work so long ago to, um, the idea of you writing a book about love seems like a stretch, but when you talk about it that way, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. And it mirrors a lot of the journey that I've, I've gone through too of like, oh, there's this stuff that we are not addressing amongst us. And one of the things I noticed in your work in this book and also mutual aid is that it, it feels like you're operating and even in the stories we kind of started the podcast with, it feels like you're operating from a sense of like, there's, there's enough, there's like enough or even abundance, like I can pour into you because we're not actually operating inside of scarcity. So I wonder if that is true. It feels like it's, it's there underneath the surface of, of what you're doing and what does it change for us when we live from that place?

Dean (15:30):

Yeah, yeah. I actually, I've had some interesting conversations with people because the book has a little section about like scarcity mentality and how it's encouraged in the systems we live under. And there is material scarcity that people experience scarcity of touch, attention, you know, food, clean air, you know, all the things. And we both know that there's like more than enough of everything to go around on earth. And it's only because of these distorted systems. And then internally it can feel like, I think a lot of people are suffering from like, oh, I couldn't even, possibly there's a deep avoidance happening culturally, I think we've talked about it before. And so it's like that, that can feel like I don't have enough to give anybody anything. And that I wanna acknowledge that as a real, like a reasonable response to the current culture where we're coerced into overgiving at jobs or like feeling just rung out and squeezed.

Dean (16:24):

But I do actually feel like, and I learned this a lot by working with people where we're all working under crisis conditions, it's kind of amazing what you can give and also you can be tired without being burnt out. You, you know what I mean? Like, you can do, do a lot with each other and like give a lot to each other and it can be connective and worthwhile and part of cycles of care, you know? So I don't know, I'm, I'm like, I do think inside me, I feel like I wanna respond to a lot of people or I wanna be open and, and permeable to a lot of different influences or like, there's a kind of abundance I, I wanna not get for me not get into like a shutdown place where I'm like, I couldn't even about kind of everything. Like that's a place I notice when I'm under certain kinds of stress.

Dean (17:11):

I might feel that way about literally everything about loved ones, about, I couldn't even take care of myself in this or that way. I couldn't even do that thing. I usually like, like that's a mode that I think is understandable, but it's always like, can I reach, I was actually just talking about this, about the difference between I'm locked down and I'm first time free. Like lockdown for me has all that avoidance in it and there's not enough. And I couldn't possibly tend to that and, and like, can I just look for, are there any more choices? Is there any more freedom somewhere in this, even under these conditions that's not, but not in a way that's like bypassing the reality of how hard this is is. Which I think a lot of like new agey stuff will just be like, love yourself, feel great all the time. You know, it's like that's not, uh, um, you know, it's just like you can't skip what, what it takes and what and what we're grieving and what we're

Dean (17:59):

Going through. Yeah. I, you know, often find that's the, the, there's like a multidimensionality of all these things of like when I get shut down in that way, that sometimes I also shut down when people are making an offer or people are trying to pour into me or support me. I miss that all the time because I'll be like, I, I can't even, like you said, I can't even take on another thing. I can't even, it doesn't only block out the burdens, it blocks out the support for me sometimes. And so the flow of relationship doesn't get to happen when I am in that place. Um, and I just think that's, you know, that's a part of it that we don't talk about is that sometimes, um, there is a even a, a sliver of support or some kind of offering there, but we, we've kind of turned away from the possibility of it too. So it's not like everything you need will magically appear if you just, you know, how do we ready our bodies to be open to the possibility too.

Dean (18:57):

Yeah. And it might not look exactly like I wanted it to look. I think that happens to a lot for you both romantic love or friendship. I want somebody who will do this and this and this, and it's like, well what about who's around now? Is there something that you could receive from them? And I also think there's a thing really strong in romantic relationships and different kinds of family formations where I just get into a mode of not being open to you, you know, the gottman thing of like, am I taking your bids? Am I all these, you know, these little signs like when you say, Hey, did you see that bird? Do I say, do I look and say it or do I ignore you? Like, am I no longer kind of picking up even small threads of connection that you're offering me?

Dean (19:33):

Or am I not making small threads because I felt rejected a couple times when you didn't pick mine up. And people kind of get into like a contest of withholding and a lot of this is unconscious. One thing I notice is that people will have a narrative about what's wrong with their date or their best friend or their roommate or whatever. And there's some truth to it. Like sure, like I don't do the dishes or I'm not a good listener. All the things that we really do do to each other, but I'm, I'm using that narrative to then keep justifying not picking up what is available between us or giving you feedback. Like, I've already decided you're not gonna listen to me. So I don't even bother trying to say like, Hey, you know this, I'd love this kind of support when I come back from my shift at the hospital or whatever.

Dean (20:11):

You know, like, or when I'm, when I talk about my sick relative, would you, would you attend to me this way? Or, you know, I don't even try to get stuff that you're offering or ask anything from you. And like, we both get kind of like more and more turned away. And so I see that in, in households, I see that in love relationships. I see that in groups that people are doing activism together or whatever. Like where it's like I'm, I'm, I've built a story and a feeling of avoidance of you and like, it's like how do, how do we help each other melt? Some of that feels like kind of urgent. 'cause once we get in that mode, I mean we've all seen it like, it, it can just be like we're just heading towards greater and greater resentment.

Prentis (20:53):

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know so much about book. When I was reading it, I was like, it feels like you're, you're looking for all the places where we're kind of stuck and unsticking us or all the places where we've kind of reduced each other in existence to pretty extreme binaries. Like good and bad, safe, not safe. And it, it, it feels like you're kind of like inviting us to step away from those walls a little bit. And I mean there's increasing state violence, authoritarianism. I mean we're seeing this locally, globally and I'm always in this question of like, how do I invite people away from those corners that make them feel safe in a time where there is more violence, there is more threat of violence on, on kind of all fronts. Like how are you holding both of those things at the same time?

Dean (21:47):

Yeah, I mean I'm like, there's so much more violence that we need each other more than ever. Like we really need to be able to connect with like whoever's around. We need to be able to build trust with somebody even though they're not our number one easy category of person. 'cause we're working at this job together or we're living on this block, or we're in this jail cell together or whatever, you know, like we really have to, um, it's actually the time to expand our capacity to connect, to trust, to tolerate imperfections in others or differences to not project. Like one thing I'm seeing increasingly is like when we get scared, my projection that you represent a whole type of person in a group. So like you represent all, you know, people who don't have the disability I have or all the non-trans people or all people who are not from whatever group I'm in.

Dean (22:36):

Like, and I'm, I'm, I'm not able to hold that. You have those qualities and dynamics as well as other stuff, enough to connect and it feels powerful to just shut you out or call you out for that oftentimes without knowing you really. Like that's happening a lot in groups I see that are trying to form and people no blame or shame around this, but it's just like, it's really unworkable for where we're at. Like we really need each other. <laugh> I was actually talking to someone recently about 12 step groups being one of the places where I've seen people connect

Prentis (23:11):

Yeah, Absolutely.

Dean (23:12):

Across difference. Like someone who's totally different age group class, race, life experience, immigration journey, and you're just like, well, we're in this room together and everyone in this room is talking about this really vulnerable stuff. And so now I can see past all of my initial suppositions about someone like you and be like, oh, there's some wisdom there. I want, I wanna talk to that person about their experience or we end up supporting each other. And I just have this question. I think as we go to the internet, more and more people have less and less tries at that, at being surprised by others and like finding unusual friendship that kind of occurs through often like in-person circumstances, um, where you don't have everything written out ahead of time to know like what that person's investments or experiences are. And I'm, that's the kind of stuff that you need in a crisis is like the ability to like figure out what you can work together on across difference. And

Prentis (24:01):

It seems like the kind of stuff that creates crises, <laugh> when we don't have some of that built into us. I'm, you know, I'm writing now and it's really in an unformed state, so I'm not gonna talk about it with any kind of clarity, but I'm writing now about loneliness and I'm, you know, loneliness and being in connection and love to me, you know, we talk about how innate these capacities are or how we like may deeply long for these capacities, but it does feel like we're in a moment in time where we've almost gotten turned around from what it is that we actually long for. So there's like some imposed mechanism, something we embody, something we're trained into where we can have a longing and then not, not reach for it, not move for it. So, you know, sometimes that makes me feel a little bit overwhelmed at the moment. I'm like, what are we gonna do when actually what's so fundamental to us feels so far away? What really makes it worthwhile? What, what makes it worthwhile? Like how do we start making the case, um, for remembering these capacities or reaching for each other or sticking in there? What, what, what makes it worthwhile for you, for you, Dean Spade?

Dean (25:16):

Well, I wanna say that I think that inability to turn towards what we want is a disempowerment that like capitalism and white supremacy really wants right? Really wants us to turn to it instead of each other for everything from food to childcare to connection to safety, right? Like wants us to turn to the cops or imagine the militaries or whatever. And the good news is that when people are in crisis, we do actually end up being able to connect. Like you just see these stories endlessly, right? And I also think all the time about that thing, I'm sure you've read this about how like people are worried that being online all the time makes people have less empathy. And then when they like send kids to summer camp without their phones for five days, they all like regain empathy that, that they were not showing.

Dean (25:57):

Like, it's like we're animals and we like evolved to connect and depend upon each other and giggle and cuddle and you know, like we just, we like we, those capacities return unexpectedly. But it is pretty intense how against ourselves and disempowered and, and lonely and disconnected, um, people are, and how that does, it does produce like so much violence and so much acceptance of harm and you know, all around, all around us. I mean, what's, why is it worth it to me? It's just like, I mean I just feel like we're living in, you know, in in eco side we're living in a, in a, in a set of systems that like wanna destroy all life and I feel more alive and more like a living animal than I ever have. I just, I feel this feeling like of immediate connection to like plants and animals and other beings around me, the more dire the circumstances of eco.

Dean (27:02):

So I get the more, the more I see the genocide and Palestine unfolding and see people's fight for their lives and the outrageous like kind of unimaginable brutality of the war machines. Like I feel so moved by like every single baby and dog I see on the street and just like old person. I'm just like, wow, we are just like beings who have short lives that are in some ways all equally significant and insignificant. And all that really matters is that we lived and like the way that we live is through eating and breathing and being clothed and having shelter. And these are the very things that capitalism thrives on using to contain and us all and to extract. And so this battle to like restore our connection to living and, and and what they will do to what they will risk, which is all life on earth to con to have this kind of control.

Dean (28:00):

It's just the stakes are just so high. And of course it's an important time to try to numb everybody out with a bunch of great entertainment technology and to try to make people feel disempowered and like they can't trust each other. Like yeah. And I also just feel you are really aware. Like we don't know what's gonna happen. Like it's really, really, really, like worst case scenarios are happening constantly. So what does it mean to, just the kind of your question for the sake of like, what does it mean to tune into life and to resistance even in the face of the unknown? Like what is it, what are the skills about being with uncertainty now? I think that's a lot of what I am connecting to and a lot of that is being in the moment in, in the living body, including when you're in like the world's most boring meeting or when someone just said something you don't like or you know what I mean? Or when you're having, when you're having a conflict, like just like what does it mean to to stay with that stuff? That is the why the, the life force that we are all a part of. It sounds so abstract, I think that sounds very abstract and like religious <laugh>, but but it's just like, but you know, I

Prentis (29:01):

Think some of those, I will say, I think some of those qualifications keep us from um, really saying what might be our felt experience is that there is something that is ineffable, there's something that is actually beyond the reach of our languaging that does make it worthwhile. It's the experience of being alive, the experience of aliveness and of of awe, of surprise of what we discover, what we don't know. I mean I think that's actually the magic of it. That there are things that can't be put in a box and on a shelf and sold for, you know, 1999. There, there has to be <laugh>, you know, um, that that's what feels exciting to me. You, there's an episode of your podcast that's gonna come out where you and I are in conversation and I think I was talking about my romantic relationship. I've been with my partner for 13 years.

Prentis (29:53):

Yeah, 13, 14 years. And our relationship, we've had many relationships over that time. And our relationship right now is in a much more spacious place or changing or like, who are you? What do you, what do you really wanna do with your life? How can you be like less contingent on me in a way? Um, it's it's a really expansive place that we're in and it's wonderful and at the same time, you know, we have a, a kid and having a kid has obviously expanded who I see day to day, Um, it's connective in some ways. Like family wants to be there, family is is more present, but friends are not as present. And I think part of it I see is like the ways we wanna spend time, you know, like very few people are like, I wanna spend time where there's a three and a half year old jumping off the couch and pretending to be Tom Petty.

Prentis (30:51):

That's <laugh>, that's what my kid is pretending to be every day. And I can't explain how we got there, but not a lot of people are like, I'm dying for that interaction. And so I'm, I'm just thinking about the kinds of interactions we want that feel good to us or stimulating or comfortable and how do we keep expanding that? 'cause there's so many people, I mean children are are one of those kind of groups of people, but there's so many groups of people that get kind of pushed to the margins that we're like, yeah, I wanna spend time with people, but not those people. And I'm wondering like how this, this work of love and community, how it can start to change our practice around the kinds of relationships that we, that we need and want.

Dean (31:32):

Yeah, it's like capitalism created all these really intense like, siloed experiences. Like you should go to school and your friends should be all people at just your age and that's where you get your education. Whereas of course in like all of our traditional cultures, you got your education by being in the village with everybody and with the elders and with the babies and you know, and you should, uh, you should have a, a fun experience of going to a party just with people your age and paying for this ticket to this concert. Like just, there's like a kind of like a lot of illusions about what constitutes like fun and a good time and what's boring and dull and, and all, a lot of that corresponds to like ageism and disability and racism and classism. Like what's cool and glamorous and um, and what's like dull and whatever.

Dean (32:13):

And and part of that is just like the lack of integration. It's like we segregate death, we segregate childhood, we segregate old age, we segregate sickness. And so things like what it would be like if children were with us in all the contexts and their parents were with us or other caregivers in all the contexts and old people were around in all the contexts and, and it wasn't like, oh just, yeah, just like the, even like, oh, I can't hang out with you with your kid 'cause then we can't talk about anything serious. Like that's like, why is that true? You know? There's a kind of like just a set of boundaries that are kind of hard to imagine life without, since we're so immersed in them. But I think are really, they really make, they create like the idea that some labor is like not fun and is stigmatized and also usually the least paid like childcare, cleaning care of sick and elderly people, all this stuff.

Dean (33:01):

And so what I, one thing I imagine is when you imagine a world based in not based in profit and coercion, then we would all be doing things. So we want them done. And so like, we might be, you know, and everybody, and in my mind in this, in this world, everything's free, right? So like you and I are working at this food collective and where people can come by and get groceries and these people are doing some childcare stuff or these people are teaching reading over here at this place and these people over here are working on, you know, cleaning up this area that needs cleaning or building, fixing these buildings or whatever. It's, people are doing all these things and they're doing them 'cause they want to and 'cause they've developed those skills and talents and they're teaching other people that, but they're, but our lives would probably be less specialized.

Dean (33:40):

We'd actually, like, I'm a baker and I fix fences and I, and you're a childcare provider, you know, and you do, uh, support for people who are having a certain kind of crisis. And, and also sometimes you do phlebotomy. You know, one of my questions always is how do we collectivize more labor and des specialize it? And so that more people are like, I mean, I'm not amazing at playing with kids, but I can do it for a few hours and I'm not, or I'm not amazing. Exactly. I'm like, I'm, I'm a little uncomfortable with some things, but I I can do some of it. Or you know, just like, instead of like, I only wanna do the thing that's the most fun that's as possible when I'm out outside my paid work. And so I just wanna like party or veg out, like just this kind of like, so I don't wanna go hang out with princess on 3-year-old because I want maximum party or veg out or whatever, you know, like this kind of, yeah. I just feel like there's not no blame, but just like, I feel like our desire is very shaped by these capitalist forms. Yeah.

Prentis (34:35):

Gosh, I really don't think we, we, we notice that, realize that, or I, I find that too the, the way that even I think about parenting sometime I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm parenting and then, you know, you have your, like, the other life I could have had that is somehow going on, like, where's that life going? But it, it's often so shaped, it's so shaped by ideas of achievement or productivity or whatever it might be. It so deeply shapes me. But a lot of things I like to do, you know, I like to build things. I like to do things with my hands. I, I like to fix things for people, but those things that I, you know, sort of do halfway that I could help people out with, I don't actually have much time <laugh> to, to do them or contribute them in the way that I would like to.

Prentis (35:16):

'cause I'm on some other kind of hamster wheel a lot of the time. I wanna talk to you about the romantic love piece, that kind of, that thing that happens in movement spaces, activist spaces, organizing spaces where they're like, oh, finally I'm with some people that I align with that are talking about the things that I'm talking about and all the desire, longing, projection that can come in. Um, I'm curious how you've seen that show up. I, I have to be honest, I have <laugh> my orientation to a lot of that was to stay, keep my romantic self out of those spaces because I was scared of what might happen. And it doesn't mean that that stuff still doesn't get in the mix somehow or that it, the projections don't get in the mix. So I just wonder if you could talk a little bit about like, what you've seen around how sex attraction romance shows up in, in those spaces and then what are some of the things that we tend to get into when we, when we bring that into our spaces?

Dean (36:19):

Yeah, I mean I, I want first and foremost, I think it's so useful to just be like, as queers we are pro sex, pro erotic, pro desire, right? Like, we know that that type of power inside us is meaningful so that even if it's just that I'm joining a group, there's a erotic pleasurable charge, even if I'm not like trying to specifically have sex with somebody in this group or date them, there's like, there's a charge to like, oh, is this gonna be where I belong? And all the stuff is turned up in me that also gets turned up when I meet someone I might date. Like, do, am I gonna belong? Is there gonna be safety? Is there gonna be emotional satisfaction I haven't had before? Am I gonna be seen and understood? Am I gonna be valued? Am I gonna feel worthy? Am I gonna get free in some area where I've been locked down where I thought I couldn't want or couldn't be or couldn't act or couldn't move, I'm gonna, we bring all that kind of like hope and desire and it's the other side of that coin, the fears, am I gonna be rejected again?

Dean (37:12):

Am I gonna be excluded again? Am I gonna be judged? You know, we bring that when we enter any group or any new relationship, a friendship, whatever. And it's so helpful to be aware of it because a lot of what I see happening in our groups is people come, this happens a lot with big conferences, <laugh> people

Prentis (37:28):

Come conferences or hookup spaces. Like

Dean (37:30):

I'm <laugh>. Yeah, I'm, I'm finally gonna be where I, I'm finally gonna get together with a lot of people like me, especially I've, if I felt really marginalized in my community, there's not that many people who believe what I believe in or have been through what I've been through. And then people, it's, it's a setup for major disappointment, right? Because, and a lot of us, a lot of us come kind of ready to find out unconsciously I'm the only one like me. So people, you see a lot of people just charging this at each other in spaces where they want belonging. It's like you can get in your own pattern where you're like, I want belonging and all I see is where I don't have it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's just like a really complicated thing. But, so I think specifically with romance, it's like, you know, of course it makes sense.

Dean (38:09):

We get crushers on people who are saying ideas. We've longed to hear who are working on freedom practices. We want like, that is who we should have sex with and date and enjoy and be friends with because you know, like everyone deserves more people who inspire them and understand them. And what I see a lot in groups is like, we're getting our social and emotional needs met through these groups. That's okay, but we're not really ready for all that that entails. And people kind of pretend that organizing spaces and groups are like businesses. Mm. Like that. Like we should act professional and we should separate it all out. So actually if we were a little more honest that there are places where we get our social and emotional needs met and we're also trying to get things done in our communities. And there's, you know, if this happened to me so many times where I've seen this happen to people, you know, you enter a space, it's so exciting, you're finally connected and maybe there's someone you're really collaborating with a lot and there's, there's some kind of beautiful energy there for one person that may feel like I wanna date or the other person not, or both may feel that way for a while or neither, but those, those energies are, can be connected to any kind of enthusiasm, right?

Dean (39:15):

So one for one person's mind it might become a romance and the other, it's an amazing collaboration, but it's real, you know? But then it can be, what I see get in the way is, you know, we meet in that way and we're having a wonderful collaboration and I have suddenly like, Prentis is my future partner and I'm like, got a really big romantic story from our culture about what it is you need to be like and how this is the only thing that'll be okay. And then I might be really angry at you if you reject me or if we do have some kind of romantic connection and you don't provide what I was dreaming of, I might be very angry at you or I might wanna tell everybody else that you're bad. Like I see a lot of blowups around this. Or I might have really bad boundaries because I really want this from you so I violate your privacy.

Dean (39:58):

Or I, I mean in worst case scenarios like touch you in a way you didn't consent to. Like all of this happens because we are all living in society in which we've pretty much never learned how to practice consent, how to accept other people's nos, how to ask for what we want, um, you know, how to tolerate the relating, especially when it comes to sex and romance, it's just turned up. So there's so much conflict that happens in a room, which it can even just be you went out for drinks with other people from the group and I felt left out and now I've gotta tell everyone how bad you guys are. I mean, I see it happen with any range of things, but when you, when you add the sex or romance element, it definitely tends to get turned up for most people. And then I'm no longer acting in my principles now I'm like, you know, acting like you're our political target, you know, when actually we should be after the university president or the mayor or the weapons company. I'm like spending all my time trying to get people to dislike Prentis or the group. I mean, I see this book as an anti-violence tool and a tool that we're trying to use against the disorganization of our communities from us acting out these reactions that really understandable, very normal, but like incredibly toxic.

Prentis (41:07):

Yeah. That feels so important. It's like you're, you're creating distinctions that aren't necessarily like, we may not have them, we're not operating as though we have them. Even the distinctions of like what kind of relationship is this? A lot of times we're like, this is either, you know, maybe you're my friend or you're my lover and I'm not actually familiar with all the different kinds of relationships we might have or embody with each other. So if I feel energy, I'm gonna try to box it into one of these that I know. And you know, I think that gets encouraged by all the things we're talking about, all the systems. It's like you only have a couple options, but here I think in the book you're going, here are all these places to look, here are some really meaningful distinctions that have us bring more awareness to how we relate to each other so that we don't get kind of caught in what's not fully conscious to us in a way that you're saying disorganizes us in a way that kind of pulls us apart ultimately.

Dean (42:08):

Um, and I just think that's so, it's so important to, to offer that, to help people see, help people discern, help people make those distinctions, you know? And, and I really love the book because it's so workable. There's so many tools, there's so many questions, there's so many ways of really, like, it's not just an, it doesn't just get to float in the idea space, but you're like actually work this through for yourself. What's happening in this relationship or in this organization? I just think that's such a, a cool, um, approach to, to being with people through this process.

Dean (42:43):

I think there's something that I've really found that I think I learned in some ways through police and prison border abolition movement. But I feel it really intensely in the content of this kind of romance and friendship stuff. We are taught to get security by locking things down. And that's 'cause that's what our society does, right? Borders,

New Speaker (43:01):

Dean that's a word.

Dean (43:02):

And so I'm like, I Prentis, I need you to do my best friend and if you go on vacation with anyone else, then you know, or I need you to be my lover in this way. Or like, and we, so a lot of people at the beginning of an experience of desire with someone is like, what am I gonna lock you into? And if, and if I start to get a real fantasy about getting you to be that whatever that thing is to me and you don't do it devastation and I'm allowed to react however I want and I'm the victim. That kind of vibe. Or also it's just like not letting things change like the truth. It's like what you said earlier about you and your partner, like going through many different phases over these 15 years or whatever. It's just like, what if we meet and we're having a really good time connecting with organizing and I want it to be romantic and you're not available for that.

Dean (43:43):

That right now can I roll with that and still really appreciate what is here? And then what if at another time you are available for that? Can I, can you accept my yes or no or what if we are in a romantic relationship and then there's a reason for one of us to move somewhere or another person we wanna connect with. Like, I don't think everyone has to be polyamorous or whatever, but just the, the question about needing things to stay the same. Yes. Or believing that anything could, or believing that that is a form of safety. Like I think what happens is if I'm trying to make things stay the same in our friendship or in our love relationship or whatever, then I will try to punish you or think that I'm bad or you're bad if they change. And if I do block you down and get you to never change, that's not a win.

Dean (44:28):

'cause probably you're then not getting to express certain things. You might be resenting me. You might be smaller in your life than you wanted to be. I'm probably smaller. I hear a lot of, I hear from people a lot who are like, yeah, my date and I, we don't really have our own friends 'cause we're threatened by each other having our own friends or we don't really consider if we'd wanna like, change our job or move or anything. 'cause it would threaten the stability. Like there's a kind of like, like freeze frame and those people usually aren't having a very like beautiful erotic desirous experience. 'cause you can't be like locking each other down. Like, the thing that's so fun at the beginning of any delightful connection is, oh wow, I actually feel like you're opening up a sense of desire or freedom or imagination for me.

Dean (45:10):

Like the way you talk or the way you move or the way you made me think about something like that kind of expansiveness. And like a lot of times, as soon as I feel myself want that too much, I wanna lock you down and, and I, this, I don't, it's like, it's, it's so common. It's like to know judgment of any of us for having that. But could I know, oh, that's a societal pattern and then have some tools for when it's coming up. Could we talk about it openly? Could we even get to a place where we could joke about it? Oh, that's what I, that's what I want the book to support people to imagine those kind of connections.

Prentis (45:41):

Right? Right. Creating an environment where real things can't be said, whether it's I wanna sleep with somebody else, I want to go explore something else where it can't be said doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And I think, yeah, we confuse that all the time. Like if I make it an environment where you can't say real things, then I somehow can pretend like those things aren't actually a factor in our relationship.

Dean (46:02):

My longest relationship, we, when we were getting together, we, we agreed like if we, if we decide to move in together, it doesn't mean we have to keep moving living together. If we decide like, you know, just not doing a relationship escalator, but really being like, or if we decide to spend time being monogamous, it doesn't mean we always have to be like, just like not seeing it as, um, as something that has to be locked down. And if you went the other in the other direction, it would be bad. So you could still talk about if it was scary, but it would, where it's an agreement to do what we really wanna do now.

Prentis (46:33):

To me that feels like the only way, it's the only way to keep it, keep it alive and to keep yourself alive. I mean, I wanna be with someone who's growing. I wanna be with people, friendships, family, whomever that are still discovering themselves and still getting to know themselves. I don't want, I mean this this thing you're saying, I really wanna just, you said it quickly and I wanna <laugh>, I wanna say it again so it gets heard, but that the tendency is to lock down. We get excited and we lock down. I, I just think that's such a helpful reveal of our societal patterns around any kind of feeling, any kind of excitement. It's like we lock it down

Dean (47:13):

And we're afraid of feelings. Like, I have to say that a lot of people I talk to who are like, I would never have an open relationship because I don't wanna feel jealousy. Jealousy feels bad and I'm a very jealous person. Jealousy feels very bad to me. But I'm like, I don't wanna organize my life around trying not to feel something. I will, I I will feel jealousy even if I'm in a monogamous relationship. I'll feel jealousy, you know? Good. It's like, it's just in my feeling palette. It's one of my life experiences. I cannot lock my life down in a way to avoid any given feeling. Instead, what I can do is care for myself and ask for care when I'm in a feeling and try to find out what's actually true here versus what is a scared part of me telling me. And like that, yeah, that desire to like the hap it's, it's the story of happily ever After.

Dean (47:58):

If I just get the right, if I just find the right guy and lock him down to the right marriage and we have the right jobs and the right house will be hap, this is the big lie of capitalism, white supremacy, southern colonialism, instead of like, wow, things are ever changing. Especially now things are ever changing. There are no guarantees. What I want is authentic connections and to try to feel what's real for me as much as possible and say yes and no when I need to and be able to ask for what I want and to be able to like be influenced by others and to know that I will just feel comfortable and uncomfortable and the whole range for the rest of my life that's just being alive. I cannot prevent that.

Prentis (48:39):

Dean. It's really a joy to get to talk to you always. I feel, I don't know, I just feel, I feel an excitement when I talk to you. I feel like new things open up. I remember I have a terrible memory, but I remember so many things that you have said in conversation to me because it, it felt like a little portal. So thank you. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you for the friendship and comradeship over the years. I wanna ask you, before we go, is there anything that you just wanna leave here that you wanna make sure listeners know, a, a nugget, something you want them to take with them as we close?

Dean (49:13):

First, I just have to say, I like, I love having this conversation with you and I'm so grateful for all of the teaching. Like your, especially your role as a, as a somatics facilitator, like seeing facilitation done with that level of grace influences me every week in my own facilitation roles and I'm so grateful for it. And, um, so grateful for your, just like deep talent and rigor of making this book, making this podcast, like making all this stuff accessible to a much bigger group of people. So needed. Right now I'm thinking so much about how much crisis people are in, and I don't know about you, but a lot of people I know are having personal crises and we're all taking care of a lot, um, in terms of supporting people who are facing increased ice and all the housing issues and their families and experiencing violence and Gaza and just like so much.

Dean (49:58):

And a lot of people I know personally melting down in different ways, needing a lot of support. And so I'm just trying to think about like, how can we all expect that anyone we're talking to might be going through a lot or anyone who's not responding to us or anyone who's said something weird and just be like a little more generous to each other. Like as if everyone were encountering might be going through a really hard time. That's, I feel like something to keep in our pockets right now 'cause it is and it's just gonna be getting more so, so like how to try to not take things personally and check things out with each other if we need to and give people a little room. 'cause it is just really next level and we're all unprepared. Um, and I just think that's something that might ease our way a little bit.

Speaker 1 (50:50):

Thank you, Dean. Becoming the People is produced by devon de Leña with special production support this season by Jasmine Stein. It's sound engineered and edited by Michael Maine. Our theme song was created by Mayyadda. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe, rate, and especially, especially leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever it is you listen. And if you haven't already, please join us over at the Patreon at Prentis Hemphill. We are having a great time over there building community learning together. Come join us and as always, thank you for listening to becoming a People.

Speaker 3 (51:40):

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