SONGS FROM THE HOLE with JJ'88, Contessa Gayles and richie reseda

The artists and producers from the powerful film, Songs from the Hole, join Prentis for this episode. JJ’88, Contessa Gayles and richie reseda shared their process of making the film about ’88s journey of incarceration, healing, and gaining freedom through a beautiful unfolding of forgiveness.

Shownotes:

• Songs from the Hole on Netflix
• JJ’88 Instagram
• Contessa Gayles Instagram
• richie reseda Instagram
• Question Culture website
• Community Healing plan 

Transcript

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00:07 - 00:27

The first thing I want to say up front is that everybody has to go watch Songs from the Hole on Netflix right now. It's up on Netflix. I want to encourage you to go watch it right now. This episode, we are talking to the creators of that film about what it takes to create something so beautiful.

00:28 - 00:48

and vulnerable. It's a film about the life and journey of JJ'88, who is a musician who was incarcerated at the age of 15. He was incarcerated for 16 years for taking another young man's life. And this film, it's like a, almost like an opera, like a musical documentary.

00:48 - 01:25

It takes you through his music, through his words, Through his journey of being lost as a young person, a journey of finding himself, it's really a journey of growing up, of forgiveness and of transformative justice, of changing, of community. It's really a beautiful unfolding of a life that is actually shaped by so much violence. The music in this film, this album that actually came out of it, was created while 88 was in the hole. So songs from the hole, hence the name.

01:26 - 01:56

And the songs are honestly such a beautiful portrait of a journey into someone's interior, where there's pain, where there's a longing for connection, where there's a longing for transformation. I mean, he really just takes you there through the music. And I think it's really important for us to bear witness to these stories, because these are the stories of people we love. They're our stories, too.

01:56 - 02:34

and 88 does such an incredible job, and Contessa Gales, who directed the film, richie reseda, who's also one of the producers and a friend of this show, just come together in a really amazing way to talk about what healing really means. what it means for us actually to transform what we need in our community, what we need from our families, from the people around us to actually change. And it sort of asks the question of, are the systems that we have in place actually supportive of the deep kind of change and transformation that's necessary for us? It's a really beautiful film.

02:34 - 02:54

It's an incredible offering, not only cinematically, which it really, really is. It does such a, it was like a multidisciplinary approach to how they tell the story that you'll see when you watch it. But the music at the very center is really so good. The music is so good.

02:54 - 03:10

The lyrics are so... evocative. So my encouragement is once you listen to this episode and you get inspired by the conversation, that you make a plan with your friends or folks around you to actually sit down and watch this film. It's on Netflix now.

03:11 - 03:28

I think it's a really important one and I'm so glad that they made it for us. So I hope you enjoy this conversation and I hope you enjoy the film. First, I just want to start by saying thank you all for joining me here on Becoming the People. We have Contessa, who's the director of this wonderful film, Songs from the Hole.

03:28 - 03:44

We have Richie, who's one of the producers and someone I've known and loved in community for a while now. And 88, who I only briefly met, but is really central to this film, Songs from the Hole. I'm so glad that you're here and that you all are here. And thank you for saying yes to the invitation.

03:45 - 03:48

Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you.

03:48 - 04:09

Yeah, I'm so stoked. So I want to start with some questions just about the kind of making of the film and then I want to dive a little deeper into some of the themes and how stirred I felt watching it and how just resonant I felt with so much of what was shared. But what do you call what you've done here, where it's like music and...

04:09 - 04:11

Okay, exactly that.

04:11 - 04:19

It's a documentary visual album. Some people might say it inverse, where it's visual album documentary, but the same documentary visual album.

04:19 - 04:34

And that was something that we kind of invented to fit what we were trying to do. We didn't necessarily fit into one category or the other, any specific genre with what the vision was for the project. So that's what we came up with.

04:35 - 04:44

Can you say more about that choice? What were you trying to do that required this multidimensional way of showing and telling the story?

04:44 - 05:06

We made the music first. So because the music came before the film, first we wanted to do a visual album because 88 had life. So when we finished the music in prison, the music itself was allegorical and autobiographical and told 88's story. We were like, how do we get this story to the most amount of people as possible?

05:07 - 05:23

And this is a long time ago. We finished the album in 2016. So at that time, me and 88 were listening to and watching Lemonade by Beyonce, and we're really inspired by that. So we're like, what if we did a visual album and did documentary pieces in between the songs?

05:23 - 05:30

And then when we approached Contessa, Contessa is really who built it out into a film. And that's how we landed upon it being a documentary visual album.

05:30 - 05:34

So y'all were recording while y'all were inside. Both of you were inside. Y'all were recording.

05:35 - 05:36

Yes.

05:36 - 05:49

Yeah. Amazing. Because the quality is, I want to get into the music a little bit later, but the quality of the music is really good for being inside while you're recording it. Yeah.

05:50 - 05:50

Thank you.

05:50 - 06:25

I mean, what I will say is like, The vocals that you hear in the film are vocals that we recorded in prison, and we got them mixed and mastered out here, originally by a really talented engineer named Rob T., who comes from the old-school West Coast hip-hop world. And then we reproduced the songs. We kept those vocals and then reproduced the songs with producers out here, Twin Towers and Dylan Wiggins and a bunch of live musicians. We needed to make sure that the quality of the music matched the quality of Contessa's visuals.

06:26 - 06:34

So you do hear prison vocals throughout the entire film and the entire song from the whole EP. But it was reproduced and mixed and mastered on the streets.

06:35 - 06:58

Amazing. Contessa, I want to ask you a question just some about some of your choices because it's such an intimate film in a way. You're so close to the family to 88's family, um, close to the progression of, you know, what's going to happen around his sentencing. There's just, there's a real intimacy to how you chose to film it.

06:58 - 07:09

There's also illustration, animation. There's just a lot of interesting choices that I thought gave a lot of texture to his story. And I'm just curious about your choices there.

07:10 - 07:45

Yeah, this was a really, big undertaking because it was kind of conceptualized around the idea of how do we cinematically represent 88's internal world. And so with that being kind of like the concept and starting with the music as Richie and 88 were saying, like the music was the original artwork that we started with and built the whole cinematic universe of the film around. And in 88's lyrics, there's so much deep detailed storytelling. It's so descriptive.

07:45 - 08:46

There's lots of metaphors and things that really lend themselves to like being represented visually and speak to these big themes and concepts in like a really cinematic way. But I think with like that starting concept of like, this is representing 88's internal world, we were really calling on memories, dreams, nightmares, imagination, and that was a part of our collaborative process where a lot of it was coming really from like 88's lived experiences or the lived experiences of his friends or homies or family members and then taking, you know, archival photos from the family album and then taking archival video of his dad preaching in church and like just taking everything that we had available to us to kind of create this tapestry and communicate visually and sonically, like how one does experience memory and dreams, like in these fragments and having the whole as kind of the setting, like the mind is the setting, but also the whole is the setting.

08:46 - 09:20

So we're like in this black void almost. And like, how do we put the collages of all the pieces together to fill that void? That was kind of how we came up with the visual style and the artistic style of the film. And also there was a big task of, having 88 feel really embodied as the main character, the protagonist of the film, who's telling his story and leading us through the whole film, but never actually showing him on camera until, you know, the very, very end of the film.

09:20 - 09:55

And so with that as like the creative challenge, like how do we make him feel really embodied and present? That also was like why we started using the handwriting in such a, strategic way and like a big way where it was the lyrics and the screenplay notes from the music videos and journal entries and all of these things that could give you texture and make you feel like 88 is really there leading you through without ever seeing him. And it was an intentional choice that using all of these other elements to make him feel embodied as the protagonist of the film.

09:56 - 10:11

I think it lends itself to this experience of the audience having to experience him in a similar way as his family and the loved ones of incarcerated people, where it's at a distance and primarily over the phone and letters, and that's what we wanted to do.

10:11 - 10:24

As you talk about how you put it together now, I'm like, right, it felt so reflective of that experience of hearing someone through the phone, of writing letters. It really gave texture to that. 88, I want to ask you, what is this film about for you?

10:25 - 11:00

Thank you for that question. I think for me, We had intentions of doing just what you all spoke about, which is to reflect the experience of people impacted by. state or community violence. Outside of those things and outside of like the healing work we tried to do with this film and just opening up dialogue around what we can do to respond to harm, I think for me personally this film is honestly a testament or a testimony of a time in

11:00 - 11:25

my life. It really is reflective of my experience particularly my experience the latter part of my incarceration. I think the longer I'm here on this side of the fence, the more I can see that as like a time capsuled moment. So to speak, this film really encapsulates like that time for me.

11:26 - 11:51

And there's so many lessons that I'm still learning just by watching our film and like some things pop back up and I'll think about that moment and I'll go deeper into that moment and maybe pull out some more lessons or some more reflections. But I think this film means the world to me because it really represents, like, a pivotal time in my life. Not a lot of people get to document a very, you know, such a heavy time in their life, for real.

11:51 - 12:08

Yeah. Yeah. And there's something, I think y'all do this throughout the film of like, you know, songs from the hole, the title comes from the songs that you wrote, recorded, that you had written actually while you were in solitary. and then maybe recorded later, right?

12:09 - 12:47

And you ended up in solitary, I'm not going to give it away, but because of a kind of like, moral choice point that you came to. And it, the way that I kind of read the moment is like, you were making this decision to do something that did not have a kind of short term reward, but in the long term was a really character-changing moment for you, that decision. The film is full of these choice points. I feel like y'all really do an amazing job of kind of highlighting these choice points.

12:47 - 13:01

Where we do and do not have choice, but there's something really powerful about you being in solitary because of a choice that you've made to kind of be on your own path. I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit.

13:04 - 13:31

I know they say, like, solitary confinement is prison in prison, but prison is prison, whether you alone or have a celly. And I think the experience of going to the hole was much like my experience being incarcerated when I was a child. As a child, I was housed alone. Sometimes we had cellmates and things like that.

13:31 - 14:01

But I think it's, again, when I watch this film, I get these new reflections. And as a kid, when I was in the cell by myself, it was actually me in the cell by myself when I heard another kid through the vent rapping. which kind of sparked my initial desire to use music and writing as catharsis. So once I'm in the hole, at that point, I had been incarcerated over 10 years.

14:02 - 14:17

So it was kind of like par for the course. And I knew what I could do with that time. I knew I could use that time to meditate, to reflect, to write, to pray. Everybody seemed to think it was such a dramatic choice even then.

14:17 - 14:28

The homies inside was like, bro, what you on? Why would you? And I knew it was something deeper. It wasn't even about going to the hall for real.

14:29 - 14:49

It was something deeper going on with me. It was just, you know, kind of God setting the scene for me to be able to write this music and reflect this experience that doesn't just represent me, but represents all the people who are incarcerated and their families who support them.

14:51 - 15:13

It's interesting, because I think there's a quote. I'm probably not going to get it right from the movie, but you were like, You know, they think in isolation, you're by yourself, but when God is in isolation with you, something else is happening. It was so moving, you know? It's like you were doing something else in that time and finding this creative voice.

15:14 - 15:49

I want to... talk a little bit about what I think the film is also about, because I think there's your personal choice points and transformation, but it also feels like this movie is operating on this other arc, too, around kind of the tracks that we get set up on before. There's a lot in your writing, a lot in your music about almost like people being zombies or not being awake or you not even knowing yourself yet, but you were already on a track. You were already kind of set up on a path to end up in the situation that you ended up in.

15:50 - 16:03

And I wonder if y'all can talk some about that kind of the conditions that we're all in and the kind of setup that kind of intends to lead you down these tracks and just put the film in a little bit of that context too.

16:03 - 16:11

Living in any society that depends on the killing and stealing of other people, it's the same shit. Some of us just tattoo it on our faces.

16:12 - 16:33

Right. And others put it on our resume. Right. It's kind of like, it's the way we are socialized that kind of led to me making the choices of taking someone's life, of gangbanging, of participating in street culture and gang culture.

16:34 - 17:02

I don't think that there was much like in prison to try to undo that until I met other incarcerated people who were actively seeking to say, actually, how I've been socialized was not aligned with my spirit. And actually, I don't believe this shit. I don't believe what they told me I had to be. So a lot of us look to each other to see, all right, so who should we be?

17:03 - 17:36

And we reach to the pure parts of our past and socialization. gave us that, moms gave us that, auntie gave us that, you know, aunt gave us. Like, the elders in our community, the people who really loved and poured into us, we revisited those lessons and that wisdom, and we built ourselves into who we are. I know specifically for me and Richie, we made ourselves who we are by undoing the colonization that took place from the jump when we got here as children.

17:36 - 18:02

I say something similar to that in The Feminist on Cell Block Y. I want to say I said something similar to that to Contessa one time, but it's also in a film. When Contessa was interviewing me in the cell, and I remember thinking about that exact, like, the assumption that domination is necessary is the underlying assumption of colonization. It's the underlying assumption of American society, of capitalism.

18:02 - 18:31

It was the underlying assumption of me choosing to rob people and go to prison. And it was there where I got to reflect on the other things that I was taught, the other things that I knew inherently as a child, especially, I mean, 88, you went to prison at 15. So I was a teenager, but I wasn't 15. In that moment, your memories of being at church, at Tower of Faith, you know, when you're 10, 11, 12 years old, they're right there.

18:31 - 18:48

Like, your memories of the homies, your memories of your childhood, they're right there. Like, you can reach back to them so quickly. I always tripped out on how you told me, like, that you stopped gangbanging as soon as you got to prison, which I thought was such a courageous choice. But when I'm hearing it in this lens, I never thought about it like this before, Prentis.

18:48 - 19:12

Like, um, about how we get set up on tracks before we even know who we are, but then we get to make choices about who we are. When I hear it in this lens, it makes so much sense because you're so close as a kid. They say kids change faster than adults. You're so close as a kid to be able to reach back and be like, who do I want to be for real?

19:13 - 19:15

You're not as set

19:17 - 19:28

You have an inherent knowing that it's not too late. I'm 15 years old. I'm 15 years old. And even though they talk about life in prison, they talk about I might never go home.

19:28 - 19:47

One, I don't even know how to conceptualize never going home. I don't know what that actually means at 15. So because I can't fully conceptualize what that means, in my heart of hearts, as soon as I get locked up, as soon as I take someone's life, I'm able to sit with these thoughts. It's obvious.

19:47 - 20:23

I don't need to be this gang member anymore It's like it's not even it doesn't take Deep thought for real. It's like my actions my consequences the result of my actions I mean and I'm kind of like All right, I don't know that I want to be the person whose actions result in something so final, something so harmful. And so for me, That was enough to be like, all right, maybe Pops is right. I probably shouldn't be from the set.

20:23 - 20:48

And from there, I can now grow into who I need to be. I would always say in prison, I don't know if it's something I believe now, but for a long time, I did believe we never truly find out who we are. We just continually find out who we're not. And over, because like, what does it mean to find out who you are if you constantly changing who you are?

20:48 - 21:05

Even when it's like, you could be a good person. Even Mother Teresa changed over her life. Even Jesus changed over his life. So it's kind of like, if you're constantly changing, then who you are is never like set in stone.

21:06 - 21:10

So you constantly find out who you're not. Like, I guess I'm not this anymore.

21:10 - 21:44

Yeah, I think that that part about being willing to change is so hard for a lot of people because it's like I've decided who I am I have this idea of who I am I know who this what this person does and doesn't do and I'm afraid to step out of that It doesn't matter what you're doing or how you're living that fear of change is so so it has people in a real grip and And when I think about, you know, Richie, you mentioned briefly, y'all did all together, Contessa, Richie88, y'all worked on Feminists on Cell Block Y, which people can still see. It's an incredible film.

21:44 - 22:10

I remember watching that for the first time. But there's something really powerful that somehow you are meeting people at their fear of change. and inviting them into another way of being, living, relating to each other. And I think that's, you know, I do a lot of embodiment work, I do a lot of trauma healing work, and that's the work of my life.

22:10 - 22:25

And always that kind of precipice of transformation where people have to let go of what they thought the world was and who they thought they were. It's like bungee jumping. every time, you know, you gotta like jump off yourself. Nobody can jump off for you.

22:26 - 22:52

And just wondering in y'all's work, like how y'all what you've learned really about inviting people into their own transformation and working with the fear of changing, working with the, you know, just like what you're inviting people into, because you're not inviting people into an easy life necessarily of changing and getting to know yourself and working through your stuff. That's not all like feel good stuff all the time. Like, how do you do that?

22:52 - 22:56

How do you, how do you make that invitation to people and support them on that path?

22:58 - 23:29

I didn't excel, if I did excel at all, I didn't excel at facilitating transformative conversations around transformation until I met Richie. And a part of that was because of his technique in, one, being vulnerable. To stand in front of the room as a facilitator, to be vulnerable, it helps participants be willing to be vulnerable. So me sharing my life and talking about a choice that I made that most people believe I should be ashamed of.

23:30 - 23:55

I should have shame for who I am because of what I've done. Richie enabled me to feel comfortable in not feeling shame amongst other people who gave me that message. But in this context, in bringing people into the conversation around transforming their lives, I found it easier to be vulnerable, and they will be willing to be vulnerable. Also, allowing people to make their choice.

23:56 - 24:22

If we've been set on a track to be a certain someone, this is the moment when you meet Richie, Contessa, and I. It'd be the moment to really sit down and be like, all right, Now, who do you wanna be? Without shame, without guilt, without any put down or humiliation, tell us who you want to be and how we can support you in being those things. And what do you need from us?

24:22 - 24:44

And I find conversations go a whole lot easier with a lifelong gang member when you ask him, man, who you really wanna be? And I ain't making you, the state ain't making you, you're not doing this because of no probation or parole conditions. You're not doing this because it's court ordered or because your grandma think you should do it. Literally, who do you want to be?

24:45 - 24:51

And let us support you in that. That's the easiest way for me to have a conversation with people.

24:52 - 25:15

there's an inherent knowing in our being that we need each other and that we need like the other natural, all natural things on earth. Like if you notice when 88 was talking earlier, he said, the consequences of my actions showed me that I wanted to be different. He didn't mention, he didn't say prison. He said, understanding that I killed somebody, that consequence.

25:15 - 25:44

Like it's through empathy that we truly, truly like understand, you know, this culture assumes that we don't care about each other. So you have to use like fear of death or violence or kidnapping, which they call arrest to like force people into treating each other well, like, like we don't empathize with one another. When you start with empathy, then it's all there. I feel like that's what this film does really well.

25:44 - 26:11

I think that Contessa, I never heard you say before that you were using 88's mind as the setting. But once I heard it, I was like, wow, you did such a good job with that. And it's so clear, like when it's like the black screen and then you see like his words come up and you see memories and you can like hear the beating on the chest and like, you feel like you're in his head. And I think that's what helps the audience empathize with somebody who they otherwise wouldn't.

26:12 - 26:46

Usually most people, ironically, because we all give money to people who kill people every day, most people wouldn't empathize with somebody who's killed somebody. And I think that that, by making 88's mind one of the settings of the film, you allowed people to empathize with him. And it trips me out because we did a bunch of film festivals and these screenings, and then we'll walk out after, and it's all these people who be so juiced to meet 88. And it was not very long ago when people hated being 88.

26:46 - 27:03

Everybody. Everybody was under consensus. We didn't deserve shit. that we deserve to like be in a disgusting place like nobody gave a fuck about 88 bro I promise you and then I got out and he was still in there and niggas still didn't give a fuck about 88 I was like trying to like raise money and

27:03 - 27:15

talk about him and be like my friend and It's crazy. It's crazy what empathy can do. It's similar from my experience coming home. I was two weeks out when I first did a screening for The Feminists on Cell Block Y.

27:15 - 27:35

Me and Hugo, who got out three weeks before me, I just did seven years, he did like 21. We walk out, we didn't watch the film, we just came at the end for the Q&A. We walk out after they saw the film and everybody's standing and clapping. Can you imagine being in prison three weeks ago and then you walk into a room and everyone's standing and clapping?

27:36 - 27:52

Because now they see you as a person. They have 75 minutes, I think, for the feminists on cell block Y to empathize with me or with Hugo. Or in this case, they have 90 minutes to empathize with 88. And it changes everything.

27:53 - 28:42

It's amazing the empathy you can evoke in people through music, through film, when you spend weeks, sometimes years, going through court proceedings, legal proceedings, to find the conclusion and healing that the state can give you. In all that time, you still don't get people to not just empathize with the person who has caused the harm, but the court doesn't even empathize with the people who have suffered the harm. there's absolutely no empathy in the courtroom for, there's like, you know, condolences, and we're sorry, and this is a tragedy. It's like all the words, but there's no true connection to the people who are dealing with serious harm in those courtrooms.

28:42 - 29:14

And it's amazing to me how one person, Contessa, can come in and see incarcerated people and just in her own natural way of being just capture our lives through her empathetic lens through her ability to like see us and that is it's like a magic because now everybody can see um because they don't even look at you in court yeah they yeah facts they don't even look at you when they're talking in prison they don't even want to call you by your name They call you a number.

29:15 - 29:33

So- The first time I went to court, I was like 13 and I didn't know when they were talking to me because no one looks at you. They're all like looking or like, I was like, wait, like, are they talking to me? Like no one even looks at you. And then you have this person who like sees you in the director, you know, Contessa as a director, somebody who like sees you and is choosing to see you and helping you be seen.

29:34 - 29:39

I want to ask Contessa about that. It's so interesting to me. You're like, they don't even look at you. They won't call you by your name.

29:39 - 30:03

It's almost like these are protective measures that they have to put in place in order not to empathize with you. Because it's not that they're without the capacity for it, but they have to put up all these barriers and formalities so that they can't see you as the person, as the brother, as the son that you are, as the child, in those cases, that you are. You have to put all that up. How could you look at a child?

30:03 - 30:19

that you're going to sentence and really look at them and see them. Contessa, where does that way of looking come from in your way of listening? How did you come to that? Because I think a lot of people can be trained just by society.

30:19 - 30:40

There's a reason why they'll put a prison very far away and in a remote place. It's like we want to disappear or invisibilize these experiences. And a lot of people can live like that, even though they may have somebody they know there, but it's like personal, but not shared in the collective. So how do you get rid of that kind of training, too, to be able to see as deeply as you do?

30:42 - 31:05

I mean, I'll just start by saying I definitely wasn't exempt from that. I was indoctrinated into that way of thinking and seeing and believing, like many of us are in society. And somebody asked me, too, the other day, because of these two films, Songs from the Hole and Feminists on Cell Block Y, like, why are you seeking out incarceration stories? Like, what is it about that?

31:06 - 31:50

And I was reflecting, like, I actually wasn't seeking out incarceration stories in either case, for the Feminists on Cell Block Y or for Songs from the Hole. In the case of Feminists on Cell Block Y, what attracted me to tell that story and of the work that Richie was doing was, like, in spite of his surroundings, that he was organizing people to connect with each other, to connect with themselves deeply and to heal from these like ways of thinking and believing that we were all indoctrinated into. It just happened to be the case that it was taking place in a prison and there's something like also remarkable about that in spite of all of the violence and oppression and all of that that context comes with.

31:50 - 32:03

And then with Songs from the Hole, like it was just me connecting with artists. Richie in 88 approached me about the music. And obviously I knew a little bit about 88's story from making the Feminist Ensemble. Why?

32:03 - 32:30

Because he shared it with the group in the context of that group that Richie had started and was leading. It was really like, there is a beautiful story here of healing and transformation and accountability and like all of these things that I understood as like a testimony that we can all learn from. that we can all benefit from. And I really connected with the art, like I connected with the music.

32:30 - 33:07

And so I think just understanding people as people, first and foremost, in spite of maybe, you know, the mistakes that they made, the worst things that they've done, the setting that they currently are inhabiting. It is that simple, just seeing people as people and treating humans like humans, but being in relationship with Richie and 88 And starting with like the feminist on cell block why I do think that it radicalized me like it brought me into my own awareness and consciousness, and in a lot of ways, and brought me to an abolitionist politic. It was a process.

33:08 - 33:27

And it started with just being in relationship with people who are closest to this particular form of oppression and subjugation. You guys were doing too much, giving me credit for seeing you. And you saw yourselves, you knew that you were worthy, and you came to me and said, like, can we do this together? And then we did it together.

33:27 - 33:46

It wasn't top down in any kind of way. It was really like a collaboration. And I think that comes through in the work in a way that other films about incarceration probably can't. I do think what we did collaboratively is unique, and it shows up in the work and what you feel in the work.

33:48 - 34:36

This is so clearly showing that the prison has no intention of doing this work around forgiveness, accountability, empathy, healing, because there's so many points at which you're like, I'm deeply engaging with my own accountability, with all of these things. And with deep humanity, it's not legible inside of this system. And I think you kind of organically, in a way, in how you put it together, you really call people into this question of like, well, what are these prisons for, if not that? You know, if they're not actually acknowledging seeing that kind of transformation is valuable, what is their intention, actually?

34:36 - 34:41

So I just felt like that was really beautifully done and how you put it together.

34:42 - 34:44

Thank you.

34:44 - 35:04

It's very few times in this film where the prison system is acknowledged at all or like described. It's not like a documentary where somebody sits down and says, 80% of black children are like, there's no stats in this film. It's not a film about the prison system. It's a film about a family.

35:04 - 35:26

the prison system is kind of like this silent villain that's stopping them from healing, or that's trying to get in the way of their healing and they find a way to do it anyway. But there's not like a buck back against the prison system. I mean, there's a lot of brilliant moments in the film where Indigo kind of like speaks to her experience of the system. But nobody's like talking, zooming out.

35:26 - 35:39

There's no like talking heads in the film, talking about the system itself. And that is one of my favorite things about this film. The Feminists on Cell Block Y is similar in that way. The primary vehicle of the film is empathy.

35:39 - 36:00

And thinking about the question at the heart of this podcast, Prentis, what do we need to do to become the people who we need to be right now? I feel like empathy is one of the primary answers. and trusting in that. And it's really hard when you've been taught that only violence can keep you safe.

36:01 - 36:26

It's hard to switch over to empathy keeping you safe. And it's messier, and it's not as clean cut as feeling like, well, I know that person's not going to hurt me, because if they do, I'm going to whoop their ass, or I'm going to fucking kill them, or I'm going to have somebody else whoop their ass and kill them, whether it be the police or ICE or whatever the fuck. It's harder to live in a world based on empathy But in the film, we get to see a slice of what it looks like with one particular family.

36:27 - 36:47

Richie, can I ask you a question about this? It's something I've been rolling around, because I think you and I really align on this empathy piece and the importance of empathy. But you see the reshaping, retooling of empathy in this moment. for political reasons, in my opinion, it's like, how can we get people to stop caring over here so that we can do what we intend to do?

36:48 - 36:59

Are there limits, parameters, ways that you shape your own empathy, or does your empathy keep stretching you and keep growing you, or both? Are there parameters?

37:00 - 37:27

I think both. Something that I had to learn to have was boundaries. And I actually quote you all the time, and your quote about boundaries being the distance from which you can love yourself and someone else at the same time, because my experience has been in a world that trains us not to care, as somebody who cares, I will overcare. and not allow someone to do their own work.

37:27 - 37:58

Because we've been programmed not to care very much, when you start caring, you can become the center of care where other people actually need to care more. My second biggest expense after my home is sending people money. But no, truly, I've learned that overdoing it for people, actually, it causes a lot of pain and a lot of harm too. So empathy has to include my empathy for myself and just a more complex empathy where it's like, you gotta let people fall.

37:58 - 38:08

It's kinda like, if every time you go running to the baby, they're not gonna learn how to soothe themselves. And I say that as the only parent on this call.

38:11 - 38:13

You said the only parent or the only?

38:13 - 38:21

I'm joking because all y'all are parents and I'm not. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. That was funny.

38:21 - 38:27

Yeah. I actually want to ask about that, 88, because you're a father now. Congratulations on that. How's that feeling?

38:27 - 38:36

Thank you. Thank you. It's a true blessing. I get to learn a lot about myself and for real life just watching her.

38:37 - 38:42

It's fascinating. I'm blessed. I don't know what else to say.

38:44 - 38:57

I'm only four years in, almost four years in, and I'm like, talk about a journey where you have to confront yourself every day through this other person. So sending you lots of love. Seems like you're well prepared. Thank you.

38:57 - 39:15

Yeah. Thank you. And I do want to just say a thing about families, because this movie is so centered on families. And when we think about incarceration or we think about people losing their lives or taking lives, it is a very, there's like, it ripples out through families, through communities.

39:15 - 39:51

It's not an isolated, this person, it happened to this person or that person. Yes, there are sort of the nexus of where it happened, but it's like, you know, it changes the lives of mothers, fathers, siblings. nephews, your nephews in the film. And I really appreciate it and wanted to just thank you all for centering the story really in the family, because we could see the impact over time, you know, over years of incarceration, of losing loved ones to death or incarceration.

39:51 - 40:06

That's not often how the story is told, but it's really something that happens in the family. And the last thing I would say about that, and I want to ask you about, it's like the compounded nature. It's not just that you got locked up, but also the loss of your brother and also the loss of the other family. It was just like, it was so compounded.

40:06 - 40:12

And that felt like the reality often for a lot of us, not just one thing that's happening.

40:13 - 40:58

Yeah, that old saying, when it rains, it pours, is true. It's evident in my life story in that a family was devastated by me taking their loved one's life. My family was devastated by me taking a life, first and foremost, and then coming to learn that my brother's life was taken, and then further still, that this young man, Jamal's life will be taken. um like that compounding of just by the prison system by the prison system and that compounding of loss uh is you know, heavy and accurate is what is happening every time someone goes to jail.

40:58 - 41:42

Every time someone goes to prison for harm, you think about the people who have been harmed that are affected. And then also this person who is connected to people, this person who is being held against their will and held in chains are connected to people who are also held in those chains. For me, Jamal is incarcerated and we are not related, but a lot of our healing is in chains because he is still in chains. And the access that is limited because he is in chains, the access that my family could have, the access that he can have, it's illegal for him to reach out to me.

41:42 - 41:44

It's completely illegal, so.

41:45 - 41:49

I think it's also just worth stating that Jamal is the person who killed your brother, Victor.

41:50 - 42:03

Yeah, Jamal is the person who took my brother's life. And yeah, his incarceration does nothing for me. It is not healing my family. It is not healing his family.

42:04 - 42:40

And the empathy in me, and because of my experience, I'm really thinking about his sister who went to school with my sister, and his mom, and his loved ones, his nieces, and nephews, and family that are just waiting for him. he's worked on his transformation. This is after he's changed his life, you know? So I think families, we used, we talked about empathy and we used, it's, I think it's, it's helpful to use my family as a sort of an introduction to empathy for people who are impacted by state and community violence.

42:41 - 42:53

And I hope that it opens the door for them to not just be like, oh, wow, look what happened to that family. That's so tragic. I'm glad he made it. But to then be like, this family is actually in my community, and it's, like, happening to my neighbor.

42:53 - 43:10

Like, this is like my neighbor's son is in prison. So now I understand what is actually happening to the people that I see every day. If there's 5 million people in this country on paperwork and incarcerated, like, that's 5 million people attached. Let's say it's one other person.

43:12 - 43:26

That's five million other people dealing with this harm. That's not even counting the people that have been harmed. I'm glad we use our family to open the door to empathy so that people can see it in the families next door to them.

43:27 - 43:45

Violence compounds, like you were saying Prentis, violence compounds. And every time we respond to violence with violence, it's more and more and more violence in the world. And that's why over the course of time, the world has become more violent. Like school shootings used to be a big deal.

43:45 - 43:54

I remember like the first one. I was a little kid, but I remember hearing about Columbine. And it was, it was like earth shattering that children were killed. Now it happens so often.

43:54 - 44:01

It's not even a headline. Genocides were a big deal. Like the whole world would stop. And now there's so many of them happening.

44:02 - 44:19

I'm not even sure if I can name them all. And I go out of my way to know about these types of things. Right? And like, the world has become more and more and more violent over time because the idea has permeated that every time violence happens, you have to respond with more violence, whether it be incarceration, whether it be street shit, whether it be, I'm not talking to you anymore, that

44:19 - 44:35

person's canceled. It's like, so more and more violence is happening, less and less understanding is happening. We're getting more distant from each other, more suspicious of each other, more willing to be violent. But good news that we seek to spread in this film is that healing also compounds.

44:35 - 44:59

And one of my favorite scenes in the film is when Miss Janine, 88's mom, says, you know, James choosing forgiveness showed me I have to sit back and take notes. I feel like now my healing has began. And the more I forgive, honestly, the freer I feel. That, like, that is the moment that shows, like, I done seen this movie at least 300 times.

44:59 - 44:59

I wrote that one down.

45:00 - 45:03

I wrote that one down in my notebook. I wrote that one down. Yeah.

45:04 - 45:15

That's the one. It shows, like, it wasn't, that also wasn't isolated. I've met people now who were there who was like, bro, it was like, it sent a shockwave through the prison. Everybody knew.

45:15 - 45:26

that 88 chose forgiveness that day. And it changed the way a lot of people thought. Like when 88 talks in the film of like, people come up to me and shake my hand and they thank me. Like, I've seen it.

45:27 - 45:53

I've been in prison with this man. People will be like, yo, like, If you can make that choice, I can make that choice. And since doing the tour and being in 30-something prisons, I didn't realize how many people that were in prison who were on both sides, who said, yo, I killed somebody and my cousin was killed. There was like a 14-year-old boy when we went to this one kid prison who was crying, who was like, bro, because I saw this movie, I think I can forgive the person who killed my cousin.

45:58 - 45:58

Wow.

45:59 - 45:59

Wow.

46:00 - 46:25

Wow. Healing spreads is contagious the same way, and when we see somebody model something that we didn't think was possible, what it opens up. I'm sure y'all have heard so many stories, but there's no way you've heard every story of how this film has touched people, and especially now that it's so much more widely available and people can watch it, watch it together. There's going to be so many stories.

46:25 - 46:48

There's going to be so many moments of that, of it catching, of it spreading. And so my deep, deep gratitude to all of you for being that modeling, for doing that work, for showing that transformation and doing it so vulnerably and beautifully. I'm grateful to you. And I know so many folks that are going to hear this are also going to be grateful and touched by your work and your stories.

46:48 - 46:48

So thank you.

46:49 - 47:07

We have a healing plan on our website and all our socials that we actually developed within the Abolition Dream Lab, which you're a part of with us, that people can use after they watch this film so they can apply, you know, the healing lessons of this film to their own life. So just needed to say that for everybody listening to this.

47:07 - 47:16

No, that's so good. Check it out. We can also link to it in our show notes too, but there are resources, tools that go along with this film. And I also just have to say, because I didn't get it in here.

47:16 - 47:27

The music is really impeccable, 88. The lyrics are really on point, 88. I was like, now wait a minute. and now these lyrics are really doing it.

47:27 - 47:48

So also just from that auditory, that music standpoint, y'all really done something beautiful and impactful. It's on point. So in every way, thank y'all for this creation, this art, this healing that you've offered to us. Thank you.

47:48 - 47:49

Thank you for this.

47:50 - 48:12

Becoming the People is produced by devon de Lena with special production support this season by Jasmine Stein. It's sound engineered and edited by Michael Maine. Our theme song was created by Mayyadda. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe, rate, and especially, especially leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever it is you listen.

48:13 - 48:31

And if you haven't already, please join us over at the Patreon. Prentis Hemphill, we are having a great time over there building community, learning together. Come join us. And as always, thank you for listening to Becoming the People.

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