Our friend, Sonya Renee Taylor, has returned to grace us with her brilliance in the last guest episode of season 3. Sonya brings her wisdom on integrity, wholeness, and creating the conditions to have our greatest impact in the world.
Episode 7 is out now on #applepodcasts #spotify and all the major podcast platforms.
Find the show notes + transcript on our website: www.findingourwaypodcast.com
Follow us on Instagram @findingourwaypodcast
Come practice with us at The Embodiment Institute: www.theembodimentinstitute.org
Stay up to date on Prentis' work by joining our newsletter
Our friend, Sonya Renee Taylor, has returned to grace us with her brilliance in the last guest episode of season 3. Sonya brings her wisdom on integrity, wholeness, and creating the conditions to have our greatest impact in the world.
Episode 7 is out now on #applepodcasts #spotify and all the major podcast platforms.
Find the show notes + transcript on our website: www.findingourwaypodcast.com
Follow us on Instagram @findingourwaypodcast
Come practice with us at The Embodiment Institute: www.theembodimentinstitute.org
Stay up to date on Prentis' work by joining our newsletter
By every account, we are standing on a precipice of necessary change, the seduction of contraction to do things as we've always done to settle into the stale and oppressive beliefs and behaviors to be lulled by the familiarity of fear is to miss. What is the awkward, messy, loving change that is our do. In this episode today, we are visited by our friend, Sonya Renee Taylor, who talks about this edginess, this place of creative possibility. We find ourselves in, will you change? Will you do what life and conditions are calling you to Sonya Renee Taylor is a genius. Those are my words. And she is the author of the body is not an apology. And the founder and radical executive officer of the organization with the same name, she's also my friend and it was really fun to catch up with her and dream about new worlds together here. I really hope you enjoy this episode. So we have Sonya Renee Taylor on the podcast today. I just wanna say that Sonya, you were our first guest. You are our inaugural guest on finding our way you open this whole thing up. And I just wanna welcome you back. I feel like we've come full circle to have you here. And I'm, I'm grateful that you're you're back. Thanks for having me back. I know it's so nice to like open it up and then I have done well enough to be invited back. <laugh> you could have been like mm-hmm we're not the wanna add no more. <laugh>. No, I mean, you were, um, requested by, I don't know how many people, a lot of people to come back on this show. Um, so we listened and we reached out to you and you were gracious enough to say yes. I mean, we could have 10 episodes with you and still it wouldn't be enough. So thank you for coming back. Um, you know, actually this is actually our third time recording, cuz remember we recorded. One, we did one and we decided that wasn't it. Yeah. And then we did it again and that was definitely it. So here we go for the third time. So, you know, we start with the question, always here, where are we? How would you describe the moment we're in? And we talked, I don't know how long ago it is now over a year and a lot has happened. I'm wondering how you would describe where we are right now. Yo, this is actually, it's actually really fascinating because we're just a couple of months away from two years, right? Since we talked, but there's a way in which I've been experiencing what feels like a loop, but it's not a loop, but I feel like I'm almost exactly where I was around that same time that we spoke almost two years ago, and the only difference is, and I think this probably is true for the collective. My hunch. The difference is a lot of the terrain looks similar. The question is, can we see it from a higher vantage point? So it's not a loop, it's a spiral, right? So it's actually, we're not going in circles, but there is, there's a new awareness that we have now. So that, that point that looks familiar, we can see it more expansively. I can see it more expansively than I did two years ago, but in a lot of ways it feels very similar, very familiar, but I feel very different. Mm. I, I really resonate with that quite a bit. I mean, I think that a lot of the, I mean, we'll get into this kind of content that we're in, but we talked ahead of the elections ahead of the election cycle last time. And so there was this tension. We're having these conversations again ahead of, you know, there's gonna be midterms elections and all of that, but it's more than the elections. It's more the kind of fraughtness and the content of the, of what's happening. It feels like we're still in. And I, I love that piece around the vantage point. That's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about or start with, is this awareness, I've heard you talk about this maybe a couple times recently we have a lot of awareness now, maybe even more so than two years ago as a collective, but can you talk about that? The increased awareness that we have and then, and then what? Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of the challenges, the, and then what I think that we have this expanded perception, right? Like, you know, 2020 really was a catalyzing and eye-opening year for massive amount of human beings. You know, there were a lot of things we had to see about our lives as a result of being in a global pandemic. There were a lot of things we had to see about systems as a result of being in a global pandemic,[there] were a lot of things we had to see about the historical struggles of marginalized and oppressed people as a result of, you know, Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and the, you know, massive amount of extra judicial killings. And so 2020 was really out here correcting our vision, helping us see more honestly what it was that we were looking at the landscape of the world that we had built. And I think that many people, you know, certainly some people came out and they were like, I plan to roll the shutters on my eyelids right back down and go back to business as usual. <laugh>, there's certainly, uh, you know, a large number of unfortunately far too many people took that option. But I do think that many people are honest enough to say I can't unsee what I've seen, but having a new awareness, being able to see something differently, doesn't necessarily translate to knowing what to do, knowing how to do something differently. And that, to me, feels like the, you know, the tension of the time that we're in is that we have this new awareness and we see greater levels of injustice and inequity and marginalization and these systems and all the ways that we were disconnected and disembodied from ourselves and from each other. And we're like, but what do we do? You know, I think that's why this podcast is such a valuable asset to the world. I think that's why your voice and your teachings are a valuable asset to the world. I think that's why, you know, so many of the folks that we're in community with are offering some of those answers because there is a moment now where we're like, oh, we've gotta learn a new skillset for this thing that we see differently. I feel exactly the same way. And I, I think so much about our work, both of our work around bodies and embodiment. And that to me is the fundamental question for me, what is, what, what actually lives inside of us? What are we actually practicing? And then there's the question of what would we practice if we were living aligned with our values, feel like they're critical questions, but this what you're posing of, like, okay, we're kind of on the edge. I feel that like our toes are on the edge of, of something. You know, we, we realize that what we've been doing, ain't working, but what are we gonna do now? The question I have for you is what do you think gets in the way of our ability to create those practices or live those practices or change? Really? What, what do you think impedes us? I was just having this conversation with my friend today and, uh, reflecting in my own life about the fact that, you know, I said to her, I was like, "wow, I, I have a level of discipline that I've never had historically. Like, I don't even know this version." And she said, "is it discipline? Or is it integrity?" And I was like,"come on what a word"<laugh> And I was like,"you're absolutely right." I was like, I, I am more committed to my, to my word and the word that I say to myself than I ever have been ever before in my life. And that has been a practice of learning that I am trustworthy, that I can trust myself. And I think that that is the fear that so many of us are living in. We're like, but if I was indoctrinated into this system and these things, and this is all I've ever known, how can I create something different? And the flaw in that thinking is the assumption that how you've been operating is the real you, versus the real you that has been stifled and actually desires to emerge and lead the authentic highest, most embodied, most loving version of ourselves is actually the one that wants to be guiding, that wants to be in charge that wants to lead us. But we don't, we don't trust it cause we haven't had any practice using it. And the hard thing is there's no way to practice except to practice. Right. And, and we want, we wanna assurance that it's gonna turn out right first. We wanna know that if I do it, it's gonna make the thing I want it to make. And the practice I've been in is I don't know what the outcome is. All I know is I wanna honor who I said, I wanna be in the world. That's and so what's the next decision that happens if I don't wanna lie to myself? What's the next decision that happens if I'm ready to tell myself the truth about the world, it is that I'm that I have been in. And the one I wanna be in that practice of trustworthiness is what builds the, the infrastructure and capacity to be willing, to risk, to be willing, to risk on behalf of liberation, to be willing, to risk on behalf of our loved ones, to be willing to risk on behalf of ourselves, coming back to like we are inherently trustworthy. adrienne says it,"trust the people and the people will be trustworthy", right? That's an Emergent Strategy principle. And so we've gotta be willing to practice what it means to honor ourselves. But we also have to play with the belief that that is possible, that we actually, our authentic self is that. I love that I wanna get into that. I, um, when you were talking about integrity at the beginning, it reminded me of one of my teachers and one of the people that works with us at The Embodiment Institute, Jennifer Ianniello, she says "embodiment is conviction." And to me that means that more of you is doing the same thing at the same time, that there's a commitment that runs through your cells, that runs through your tissues, that is expressed in your muscles and therefore your behavior, that there's a commitment inside of your body. And you're able to through healing work and through practice, like what you're saying, get more of your body to do more of the same thing at the same time, instead of some of your body protecting and some of your body expressing this thing. So I always use that as a guide for me that that's what we're talking, we're talking about integrity. Integrity, absolutely. And that your body always tells you when you're out of integrity, you'll just feel it. And what we've been so conditioned to do is to override that information, to not trust what it is that our body is telling us to say, "oh, that's the lie." And the external thing is the truth. And you know, this is the opportunity to flip that I had this, um, share this funny story recently. So about a month and a half ago I became vegan. Okay. I never imagined I would become vegan. I'm it's been an interesting journey.<laugh> Uh, it's been a real interesting journey, but so I was in Pennsylvania with my family over the Easter holiday and I had Easter catered for my family cuz nobody wanted to cook. And I was like, "alright y'all, we gonna all come together and I'll go on ahead and, and have it catered." And so, you know, it was very traditional soul food, candy, yams, macaroni, and cheese fried chicken, baked chicken, barbecue, chicken, uh, lasagna, all, everything.<Laugh> when did lasagna get in there? I just wanna make a note cause that hasn't happened in our family too. When did lasagna get in there Y'all? It, it, it slid in it slid in the, it slid in the DMS and now was the, it did, but yes, it did. It slid in the DMS and it was like, all right, we like you cheesy layered noodles.<Laughing> Yes exactly. Um, so I had to go pick up the food and I'm, you know, putting the trays in the back of the car. And I was, I was having a teetering day where I was missing the flesh of animals and I was stressed out, and I was emotional and I was all these things. And then she put this hot steam in aluminum pan fried thing. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna eat this chicken wing. I don't care. I'm doing it. <laugh> so, and so I ate a chicken wing and no more than five minutes later, nothing, nothing physiologically happened. You know, the chicken was crispy, it was warm. It was nice. It was all those things. But no more than five minutes later, my body, my body was like, "but you betrayed us". It was like,"but we made a commitment and now you're not honoring the commitment." And it was the part of me. It was the sad, cranky, lonely, stressed out part of me. Right. That was like,"I'm gonna do what I wanna do." And the rest of me was like, "but wait a minute, we had a pact. We were together" <laugh> and all of a sudden I could so see that part of me that was separated from the whole and what I wanted more than anything in that moment was to just be whole again. And I was like, "oh, what happens when I honor myself is I remain whole." And isn't that what we want is to feel our wholeness, right? Not to just like understand it as an intellectual concept, but to feel our wholeness. So nothing fleshy since, cause I just wanna feel my wholeness. Mm-hmm.<Affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> I, I really appreciate that story. I feel like gives it a, a kind of visceral way. We all relate to that. I mean, my partner and I were talking the other night because you know, we have a seven month old and your body will say, "go to bed now, so you can get some sleep before this child wakes up." And then the there'll be that same voice that was like, just go ahead and have this chicken. That voice will be like, "just scroll on this phone for another hour." <laugh>. You know, you wanna see the update, you saw seven times on this person's Instagram page. <laugh>. Exactly <laugh> but listening to that voice is it can be hard to do. Cause it feels like there's so much trying to drown it out. Uh, so I wanna talk about practice cause you mentioned that, and this is one of the things that really excites me. And I think about a lot, but I wanna say whenever I'm practicing something new, whenever I'm trying to do something new, whether it's setting a boundary or allowing myself a kind of vulnerability or emotional experience or learning an instrument or something like that, there's a long period of awkward. There's a long period of discomfort. So when we talk about practicing, and practicing towards our trustworthiness, how do we deal with, from your point of view, how do we deal with that awkward period? How do we deal with it kind of individually, but I'm also interested in how we create a culture in which people can be awkward, especially given some of the historical power dynamics. How do we actually practice given what's at stake and what has happened? Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm.<Affirmative> yeah, I do. And I think that there's, you know, I feel like there's tension in this that is, you know, inherent inside of living in systems that don't afford you the space to practice without really drastic consequences oftentimes. Right. Um, you know, it's, it is the reason why we see so much indiscriminate violence against black bodies, right? And, and the overpolicing of black children, and the school to prison pipeline is that, you know, black kids don't get the space to practice, to practice being an adult, to practice getting it wrong and being forgiven and having grace. And it steals, it steals a certain level of our humanity, and our softness from us, right. The ability to, to trust it. You know, the visual that I get is like these playgrounds that late nineties, cause they realized that sending us to play on these rusty metal and steel bars was probably not the best idea. And so then all of a sudden all the, all the toys got made with plastic and there was a cushiony, um, floor. So that if you fell off, you would land on something that cushioned your fall. How do we build that? Um, one inside of ourselves. And then how do we build that collectively? How do we build that in relationship? And so part of that for me is, you know, the, the cushy fall is my release of perfectionism. No longer seeing awkward as bad, no longer seeing awkward with a judgment assigned to it and just letting awkward be awkward. Right? Like, and actually like calling into mind the times where awkward is endearing the times where awkward is sweet and adorable, right? Like if you've ever gone to a school dance of like, you know, fifth graders,<laugh>, they're, they're the most awkward, right? you're like, "oh they're so cute. Look how awkward they are." Right. And it's like, can we approach ourselves in that way? Can I look at Sonya fumbling and stumbling with her little dough legs? And can I find her endearing? Right. Can I be like, "Aw, look at you, boo." I mean, and that was actually the, the way that I met Sonya who ate the chicken wing <laugh> was just like, "Aw, pumpkin, I see you. Right. You really, you just wanna hug and a nap and it just turned into a chicken wing it's okay."<laugh> right. And so infusing some compassion and some generosity and some love, you know, that's really what a radical self love practice is, is how do I meet all the aspects of myself with a, a more fecund love than the love that we have You know, we've defi <laugh>, so we've defined in the world? And then I've been thinking about this. So often in these societies that are structured for our harm, right? Like if we can just acknowledge that, right. That these societies are structured for our harm, they're structured for our exploitation, extraction and ultimate disposal, right? Like that's, that's what capitalism is. And so inside of those dynamics, the way to some alternative has to be localized, has to be in community, has to begin in a space of practice. That's about who is my network, who is my community, you know, who is my family and can I start practicing there? And then can we build as a unit, right? And then can we, when we need to merge that awkward unit that we have compassion for, with some other awkward unit that we can extend that compassion to, how do we start baking in grace in the way that we move and operate with one another? And I think this is the connection to our conversations about abolition in a world, without grace, you can only have punishment. There's nothing else. If I can extend grace to myself and I can learn to extend grace to my community and my family. And then I can say, alright, well what's the next ring outside of that? Because clearly we can't be the only people that deserve grace. Right.<laugh> and if we're the only people who deserve grace, is it grace? Is it grace? Or is it just, you know, the ability to ashew accountability, these are different things. Right? So yeah, I really believe that the more that we practice together, the bigger we create the ring of practice, such that we build a larger facility to meet some of these more egregious challenges that we're facing. Hmm. I didn't intend to really go down this road around accountability, but I'm just curious in talking to you, you know, we had Mariame Kaba on last season talking about abolition and one of the things I've heard her say, and I hope that I can paraphrase her well, is accountability is a really kind of a localized process that it doesn't actually make sense for me to effort too much to make somebody over there who I'm not like where through many people we're connected. It doesn't make that much sense for me to effort in that area, to hold somebody very far away from me accountable. I think that that then brings up the question of how am I supporting accountability and the places very close to mem within my network. So I, I'm curious your thoughts around that kind of, we see this a lot in social media, there's, um, holding folks accountable that feel far away, like what do, what do you make of that distance and that tension and those efforts around accountability that we see publicly. Yeah. I mean, for me, one of the ways that I sort of orient around this is that like accountability is an inherently relational dynamic. And if accountability isn't relational, then again, it's just punishment, right? Because you can ask me to be accountable. And if I refuse, then no accountability has been had. So the only thing you get to do is enforce something on me. That's punishment. Right? And so accountability is you saying ""here is an area of harm. I would like you to rectify it. And me saying,"I will rectify it." If there isn't that place of meeting, then what you just have is here is where you harmed me. And here's what I'd like the world to do to you. <laugh> to rectify that. Right. And so to me that is inherently sort of leads us to punitive dynamics. And so if relationship is one of the, you know, being relational is a part of accountability, then the question that I ask myself before I go, trying to say, I need to make this person accountable is "what is my relationship to them" and"what is their relationship to me?" And of course we all have relationship, right? We are all connected in some ways, but I think there's an opportunity to, to really return to a distillation of that relationship. And I talk about this all the time, as it relates to the internet, like if you are arguing with strangers on the internet, right.<laugh> like you, it is, it would be to me like walking into a grocery store and seeing somebody buy something that you vehemently disagree with. Right. And then just going off on them, people would be looking at you like you are tripping, right. Like, "huh. Why would like you don't do you know them? Like, huh?" <laugh> if that's the case, then what does it look like to say? Right. The place where I have the possibility of the greatest impact if my desire is to see changed behavior. What are the conditions that create that those conditions are relational. If I don't have a relationship with you, but I call myself trying to make you accountable. Am I really trying to make you accountable? Or am I just soothing something inside myself?"And like, I think it's cool for us to get honest about that. I think it's cool for us to be like, no, actually I just want you to suffer, cause I feel like you made me suffer. If we can tell ourselves the truth about that, then we can actually start to tend to our own wounding rather than, rather than expecting again, some sort of vindication for our wounding to happen through the harm of somebody else or the suffering of someone else. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative><laugh> I love talking to you cause my brain just feels like <laugh> overload, but in a great way, I just, I feel very alive. Um, but I have been thinking similarly about being vindictive or the kind of like all, all of those moves that we can make. I, I think Mariame talked about this. She was like, what if we could say that we do that. And that is part of one of the things that human beings can do. And as I think about it in terms of being a therapist and working with people that is often a way that people are trying to regain a sense of agency in their own lives and experience, and we do that through, oh, I, you did that to me. I'm gonna have access to my agency again by doing this thing to you. And I think if we know that that violence often results in people feeling like they are not able to make choices in their lives, things can happen to them for reasons that are unknown to them, that that strips away a person's sense of agency and choice in the world and, and the kind of safety to make choices. And if we know that about humans, then what do we do about harm then? What do we do about these processes that we're talking about? I <laugh> so many questions are coming to me cause Sonya, I honestly feel like you are one of the most brilliant thinkers. I think I've told you this before. I think you're one of the most brilliant thinkers of our time. And so anytime that I can talk to you and just hear your thoughts and feelings and, and how you make sense of everything, I feel like it's such a gift for me, but also for everybody, you're absolutely brilliant. I really find that to be one of the highest compliments I've ever received for one of the people that I think is one of the most brilliant thinkers of our time. <laugh> so thank you. We just get to have a mutual gush-fest.<Laugh> I appreciate <laugh>. I will take that in, but I mean, I truly feel this way and it feels, so I will say about you, it feels so like I know this probably isn't true, but there's an effortless to what you're able to access. Like the, I love when you do a what's up y'all and you're just like chilling. Just in the, just in the bathtub. You, you in the bathtub, you in the bed, you're like, I just casually am brilliant right now. I'm like, gosh, I <laugh>. I don't think it's that so much. Here's what I think is actually operating. Right. And I think this might be, I want everybody to practice this. Right. Which is what happens, what comes forth when, when we aren't in struggle, right? Like that's really what it is. It's like, oh, I'm my nervous system is rested. I'm in a place where I'm, where I can feel, you know, safe where, you know, I've intentionally done things like put myself in places, surrounded by trees in a pond and nobody else. Right? Like I've created the kind of conditions where my external world is quiet enough that whatever wants to come through that just wants to come through. And I just like, oh, what happens if we all get to do that? Right. Everybody's got some sort of wisdom that wants to be activated when all the rest of them is not activated, which is why embodiment practice is so essential. Thank you for saying that and revealing that, cause I think that's absolutely true. There's so much brilliance in people. And most of our attention and energy is often going towards a bunch of other things, you know, and Tony Morrison said that white supremacy is mostly waste of time. It's a distraction. Yes. Keeping you from doing your work, your real work. Absolutely. You're really here to do. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, but one question, I, I kind of wanna go back to what you're saying about the kind of web of relationship, the networks that we're in. I absolutely agree with you. And I feel like we are at a stuck place in terms of, we live so much online and so much of our social time and spaces online. And I think we can absolutely build networks and relationships through that medium. But I find that there's like there are real world limitations to having relationships that are not in our same place that are not relating to the same piece of land, often same area, the same pressures received in the same way when we're thinking about the kind of solutions or we have awareness. And now what I think like how are we ever going to build community or build our networks intentionally when we're being pushed and pulled in multiple directions? There's And then there's the world around us. I, this is just something I'm thinking about these days. And I wonder if you've put any thought on it before, have any feelings about it. Yeah. So, I mean,<laugh> welcome to the dystopic elements of my scorpion nature. Um, <laugh> "Sorry, it's just there. I think that we are gonna be forced to, and in some ways that's what life does right. Life is like, okay, you're gonna need some conditions to help you remedy this cuz you just don't seem to be motivated by yourself." And I certainly think that humanity is a bit in that space right now. And the other perspective we could have about that is we create the condition to do the thing that most wants to emerge in us, whether consciously or subconsciously. And so if we've built all of these things that inherently separate us, that inherently create distance, but that's actually in harmonious with our most authentic self. Then subconsciously what we're also doing is creating the circumstance to ultimately have to break through that thing. And so we could see climate chaos and crisis as the existential need to undo the structures of fiction that we've built our lives around. And so community is going to be essential when four months out of the year, California has a fire season. Yep. A season where things spontaneously burn up inside of those conditions. The only way to survive them is inside of community. The internet will help mobilize the internet will help match resources. But ultimately when you are fleeing from your burning home, you are fleeing with the other people in your neighborhood who also have burning homes. And all of you are being displaced to new communities and whether or not you'll have the support to thrive in those communities, depends on how we build with one another. Now imagine if that circumstance is happening all over all at the same time in far greater intensity than even what we're experiencing now, we're gonna be forced to create community in order to survive. And we will start to be able to see how we both mobilize the innovation and the digital technology that we've created to help us, you know, foster greater connection and community in other kinds of ways. But we will have to have land-based community to survive. I think we've created the conditions where there's not a way around that ultimately. Wow. I hadn't thought about it that way. That's a really powerful way to think about it. Leave it to the dystopic Scorpio. <laugh>. I mean, you know, I got it in me too, so. I know you do. So I'm like <laugh> uhh huhh. uh huh. I know my cuspy friend.<Laugh>, I'm a very cuspy. I am on the cusp. Yes, absolutely. And I, you know, I'm someone that meets, I, I go meet my neighbors. I'm a, I do that for a safety thing. I want you to know what my face looks like. I want you to know who I am, but I also am a recluse. I mean, a lot of people know that too, but I, I do want you to lay your eyes on me. I want, I want you to know who I am, who lives near you. Absolutely. Because when it's time to be humane to one another, we want to know like when you see someone, you understand them, particularly in crisis as connected to you. And the more that we make those connections intentionally, the less likely we are to be thrust into them circumstantially. And so I invite people to go on ahead. That's a word y'all, that's a word. Right? Do it intentionally.<Laugh> that's a word right there. And I think it points to what you're saying on the top about the kind of risk and the creating, like what is this moment call for? It could be very simple. Sometimes people are like, okay, I wanna embodiment practice, I want something it's really gonna, you know, we're looking for a, a, a kind of magnitude of practice. It's like, it could be very simple. It could be, we're making connection, bringing our presence forward to be with another person to, to say, hello. It, it changes the trajectory of everything. Absolutely. To make that kind of connection. Absolutely. You know, we are not encouraged to make And of course we would not be in a world that's structured on individualism making connections. We only do that if it's in service of competition, but that awareness that shows us oh, right, those things don't work, allowing that awareness to be like, okay, well then what would be differet? What would be different is I would go meet my neighbors. And if I had something extra for my garden, I'd drop it off. It's different. And it's actually not different. It's a return to a way of being that we used to be before, again, we grew this system so large and so outrageous that it's forcing us to return to something else, but we could go choicefully before we're forced. Whew. You spark something in me around the kind of individualistic culture that we live in. It's it's because we need each other, the imposed individualism, all we could be is fearful because we need each other for whatever you might call co-regulation or just connection or knowing who we are or being human beings, we need one another. And without that, without that knowledge, without that kind of guiding principle, you're gonna have to be afraid. You're gonna have to live in fear.<Laugh> what else has left, right. What else has left? Alright. I wanna go, maybe just two more places here. One is that I think you articulate so well, the delusion of white supremacy, you just talked about the fiction. That's kind of overlaid on top of our reality. I talk about denial so much. I also look at this moment and see, you know, we're talking about the war on Ukraine and we don't have to get into the details of that, but just the premise<laugh> of the kind of battling ends of white supremacist delusion in a lot of ways, I'm, I'm sometimes struck by how far the denial will go. And I think we're all kind of in an existential moment around climate, but we're in an existential moment around this war too. And as you kind of look inside of this delusion that is imposed on us, these heirarchies and these ladders, do you feel, I guess it's really a question of like, what's the <laugh>, I'm kind of laughing at myself cause I think the question is like, how far is this thing gonna go? How far will they go? <laugh>. Always gotta take it to the full out extent, right? <laugh> Oh goodness. Here's how I grapple with that currently. And you know, so much of this is it's inside my spiritual practice. And so I can't speak for other people who have other ways of how they orient the world. But for me and for my nervous system <laugh> is the idea that we are in both a collective reality. Right? But in many ways we're in a collective reality because we've chosen to be in a collective reality. And that doesn't mean that again, the outcomes, the larger macro outcomes of our collective choices do not have an effect on one another. Absolutely they do. Here's, here's the deal like if they wanna start a nuclear war, I can't stop that. It's super duper duper outta my control. <laugh> it's super like, like the most outta my, duper duper outta my control. And so I treated the way that I treat all the things that are super duper duper outta my control. Like I can't, I can't stop that. And so allowing myself to be immersed inside of it no more than I can stop the whatever, you know, ruler is ruling some country, many, many, many moons away from me from doing awful things, you know, with their rulership. I have no ability as an individual to stop that. What I can do is say again, what is inside of my integrity? And is there an intersection between what is inside my integrity and that experience that is happening? If there is indeed an intersection, sometimes that intersection is, oh, my favorite sweater comes from there. Maybe I'm not buying that sweater no more. Sometimes that is an intersection. And sometimes there's no intersection at all, again, back to this conversation of relational change, right? Like how do I focus my energy and intention on that, which I actually have an impact on and how do I not trip about the shit I don't have no, no control over <laugh>. And if the people involved in that dynamic decide to take it to nuclear war, I'm gonna kiss my family and I'm gonna love them. And I'm a hold tight and I'm gonna deal with whatever that outcome it is whenever that arrives. There's no way to, to interrupt that, but I don't have to live in that reality right now. One cause it isn't an actual reality yet, it's a fear of a potential reality, but there is a present and inside that present, there are people to love. There are traumas to be, be healed. There are folks to feed. There is a, a possibility to build in real time. So again, what does it look like to take our very precious, very tender, very necessary energy and return it to what there is for us to do in service of our own integrity and the care of one another right now. And the more people decide to turn in that direction. Guess what an entire war, this actually just between two people who, who nobody's paying any attention to anymore. I think about it like a fight in a schoolyard. It's only hype cause everybody's watching it. If everybody walked away, they're like, oh I'm tired. I don't even feel like doing this no more.<laugh> I walks away <laugh> and everybody walks away.<laugh> and again, like I said, who knows, but I would much rather direct my energy toward that, which is present before me to create that is in alignment with my highest good and the highest good of the world. It is that I wish to see come into being. And I can't spend my precious energy imagining inside the collective imagination of, you know, tyrants and oppression. That's not where I'm gonna spend my energy. That's so good and so necessary. It's, it's I'm gonna be cuspy because we're here together. Yes. Okay.<laugh> um, come, I think so much about the delusion that you articulate and this denial that we talk about is really for me, um, people's fear of death. Mm-hmm.<Affirmative> absolutely. Which is also their fear of living. And so when you say I can focus on what's here, the people that I, I love letting them know that they are loved by me, letting them feel that feeling what is in my control, doing the things that are in my domain to do, to me is a real turning towards life. That is what it means to me to turn towards life, to be in your life and to be in what is yours to impact and to link up with other people and impact even more. But the lies are to me based in a fear of death, and an immature response to the reality that we will die. And so this is the thing that they dangle above us. You know, it's like this, this is the potential it's like, you all are caught up in this fear. Right. <Laugh> and, and for me, and again, this is back where sort of my spiritual practice lives, which is like, right. If, if death is finality, there's nothing after this, right? If death is finality in that sense, the only orientation toward life one has is accumulation because that's the only way you understand yourself as enough or the world is like, it's the only thing that feeds the sense of worthiness inside of you. Then all your life is, is directed towards how much more can I attain before I hit finality? But if life is again, what I have in this moment in the connections that I have in this moment, and tending to those, as long as I have moments, then that's actually what the focus is. And so even if death is finality, that too is neither my business. Guess what? It's absolutely gonna happen. I can, I said this one time, this I, I had a woman write me. She was so mad at me. I said it at a graduation speech. And I was like,"Hey guys, I hate to let you know, you're totally gonna die." <laugh> and they were so offended. I said,"my hope is not today. Like, but your totes gonna die." And a woman later on wrote me. So Scorpio. So Scorpio of me. And a woman, like years later wrote me. She was very upset with me because her sister had cancer and her sister indeed did die a few later days later. But I was like, I didn't make your sister die. Mm-hmm <affirmative> dying is part of life. It is, it is inevitable. It's the one thing we absolutely 100% know is definitely going to happen. So if we went on ahead and made some peace with that, then we could go on ahead and get about the business of living, and me lamenting and filled with anxiety about what's gonna happen if I die or how to prevent dying. And all of these other things keeps me from the business of tending to my real active, beautiful life right now. And if we could get into that, a lot of the things that are all about warding that off in the most violent and disconnected ways would actually cease. And my hunch is everybody would probably start all living a little longer. I just, you know, I'm like the thing you think you're avoiding, you're actually bringing closer to yourself because you won't just be in the present. So good. It's almost, it's almost, um, so good that I want to end there. I had a, another question about something, but I don't know <laugh>. But who knows now we all gonna die. Nevermind. Just be now.<Laugh>, you know, I love that shit. That's where I'm be hanging out. I'm like, that's how I find peace. I know I'm gonna die. There is so much peace in that. There is so much. Yeah. You know, when I stopped tripping about it, I had this experience on a plane and I used to have horrible flight anxiety. Right. And part of the reason my flight anxiety was so bad is, you know, one, because there was so much undealt with stuff that actually wanted to be dealt with in this lifetime. Oh, come on son. Yes! It wanted to be dealt with in this lifetime. And so my fear of dying was exacerbated by all the things that I keep putting off dealing with right now. That's what it was. So recently I was on a plane and the plane hit turbulence and all of a sudden the wing was not straight no more. Oh yeah. And I was like, and I felt the like, you know, oh, what is that well up in me? And then there was this interesting, never before experienced like, well, if that's where it's going be, <laugh> like, it was this, it was this fascinating surrender, cause there's not a lot of stuff I'm putting off. So, you know, if it's now I swear, I feel like I went really hard. And what would it look like to just approach life like that? Like if tomorrow doesn't happen because I promise it's not promised. Have I been honest with myself? Have I honored myself? Have I honored the people that I say I love? Have I lived inside of my integrity? Have I left the world a little bit better than I started with? Have I done those things that, to me say good life? And if I haven't, if I'm worried about that, then that's actually the place to put your intention. Your intention and attention is how about I get to that task. So that, that existential dread is actually just directing you to what it is life wants you to do today to honor it. Hmm. I love it so much. I'm gonna ask you one more question, cause I just gonna end it like this. Sonya, what's bringing you joy right now? Hmm. What's bringing me joy right now. Um, so I'm in the U.S. Floating about, and I'm seeing all of my loves and that's bringing me so much joy. I'm spending Easter with my family and we was just Black and beautiful and singing this little light of mine over the food. It was just so cute. Oh, come on. It was adorable. I was like, Aw, look at my family. And, and same with my friends and my loved ones. And so really spending that time is bringing me a lot of joy. Every time I'm able to just like I said, get myself out of future or past. And just right now, I'm in the moment. There's so much joy available in that. There's so much I was on a walk today and there was, I don't even know what this bird is, but it's like all black. And then in the corners of each of its wings, this bright orange color. And when it spreads, this orange is so massive. It almost looks like little flames shooting outta the side of its wings. And I was like, "well, come on and get into that joy." <laugh> like, that's, that's available to me right now. Right. You know, every time I manage to find something that is tasty yet vegan on the road, little spark of joy,<laugh> lights in my heart.<laugh> yeah. I really have been on this quest of being like if joy and suffering are available in equal measure, then what does it look like for me to just spend more time in the joy line? Cause the, the suffering line going run up on you, it's doling out, it's doling out servings, whether you ask for them or not. Period. Period. So if that is indeed the case, then I better intentionally take some extra helpings of joy. I better leave some room on my plate for joy. And so that's what I've been trying to do and finding it in all kinds of unexpected places that I would've never imagined. I'm so happy to hear that. And if you, you know, come out to North Carolina, we out here. I'm considering that a real invitation and we is gonna coordinate. Okay! There's a vegan barbecue place. And there's a baby. I have to cuddle. There's like, there's a baby. I have to cuddle. There's baby. There's a baby. You have to cuddle. It must be cuddled. So yes. It must be, must be. So yes. Please find your way out here. And Sonya, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for, for you. Thank you for whatever it takes for you to be as brilliant, as generous, as loving as you are. So just thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for this, for this vision and giving us all these seasons of this brilliance and you know, being a, a pathway and a light on, you know, what's a dark road. Sometimes we appreciate you. Finding Our Way is produced and edited by Eddie Hemphill co-production and visual design by devon de Leña and Assistant editing by Miranda Luiz. 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